Ouch Podcast #78 – November 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr 

mat	Thank you for downloading podcast 78 for November 2011. Last month I was in Japan as you may have heard. This month I'm back in London with the lovely Liz Carr. What's on the show Liz?	
liz	This month M-O-N-G. Are you feeling a bit monged out today? Do you find that word offensive or how about the word 'crip' while we're at it. Well, Ricky Gervais and Mat Fraser set fire to our language debate. 	
mat	Well all right then. Tony Garrett joins us to give us the latest in 2012 Paralympic's gossip. And we'll be talking to the 7/7 bombing survivor who's now chancing her arm at sitting volleyball. It's only nine months away now.	
liz	And we play out with music from Bianca Nicholas. 	
mat	Yes but what's up with her? 	
liz	Ah she's got Cystic Fibrosis and sings. We also hear she got through to the first stage of X Factor last year. We'll find out more about that later because she's coming in. 	
mat	All this and more from the only disability talk show this side of nowhere. 
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr.]	
liz	Great to have you back, Mat.	
mat	Oh it's so good to be back, Liz. I had some incredible times in Japan but I was so culture shocked as well it's just nice to be back in that which I know to be familiar - your company.	
liz	And your report on the wrestling and on the effects of the tsunami were amazing so thank you for joining us, it was very strange having you over the phone. 	
mat	It was weird talking to you being the weird person on the other end of the line for a change, it was weird. Well as weird is. 	
liz	Look before we go any further...	
mat	Yeah. 	
liz	... this next segment will contain some language around disability that not everyone is going to like. So you might want to switch off now. Just warning you. 	
mat	Yes because it's somewhat of the issue of the moment isn't it as we go to tape, as they say. 	
liz	Language yet again is back in the news. That's language around disability of course. And you can't... I've not heard of the Ricky Gervais debate around the word 'mong'. 	
mat	Yes that's right, we've said it, it's the 'M' word and it's caused a furore basically hasn't it, Liz?	
liz	Well Ricky... how it all began is that Ricky Gervais started using it on Twitter. So the sorts of things that he was saying were 'Good monging everyone' 'Two mongs don't make a right' 'Night night monglets, putting the cat on recharge then off to bed'. And then when people did start saying, you know, why are you using the word 'mong' Ricky? He said, "Well done everyone who pointed out that mong used to be a derogatory term for DS, Down's Syndrome. Gay used to mean happy. Words change, get over it." So was it right to use the word 'mong'? Was that okay or are people being over-reacting? 	
mat	Ricky Gervais clearly said that he doesn't link the word to disability, that no-one does, and that that was back in history and language have moved on. And he says it doesn't now mean Down's Syndrome anymore. 	
liz	But what we've got here is Ricky Gervais, hugely known internationally using a word that many people are saying is an offensive tag. I must say that he has since on Twitter and publicly apologised for using the word once he realised that it was so offensive. But I'd like to go... we've got on the line Tim Rushby-Smith. Hello Tim. 	
Tim	Hiya. 	
liz	And you're a disabled columnist, you write for The Times.	
tim	I write for various newspapers but yeah. 	
liz	You write for many things. 	
tim	On The Times.	
liz	We could say that you're a snapback is that right, Tim? 	
tim	Sorry I didn't catch that. 	
liz	We could say that you're a snapback, if we were going to use...	
tim	A snapback yes you could call me that, yes. 	
liz	You know if we're going to use these kind of terms. But tell me, you heard, you listened to all the things that Ricky was saying do you think he has a responsibility to not use offensive terms? 	
tim	Kind of yes I do think he has a responsibility. I think my education on this issue is over comedians being told that they can or can't use certain language. Because a lot of people their first concern is that it comes into areas of censorship and that people do get offended by comedians and it's a question of where the threshold lies in terms of use of language. But I don't think it's as straightforward as that in a situation like this because I think the way that while he might have made the claim that he wasn't using the term mong to describe people with Down's Syndrome, it was quite clear that a lot of people that follow him were not necessarily as clear on the way that he was using the language. And I think what I was most uncomfortable with was having been called on it and having claimed that he wasn't using the term in the way that other people were inferring it, he sort of dug his heels in and what was particularly unpleasant was he kind of directed his followers to then go after the people who had criticised him. 	
mat	Yeah. 	
tim	And there were some really unpleasant exchanges on Twitter where people were really... I mean actually some of the worst use of inappropriate language, if you like, was actually directed at disability campaigners like Nicky Clark by people who followed Ricky Gervais. And I think what that really illustrated was that the way that his followers were interpreting what he was saying was clearly different to what he claimed was his inference. 	
mat	And do we think... I'm going to bring in Scott Watkin here who's the Ambassador for Mencap and former learning disability tzar, welcome back to the show, Scott. 	
scott	Hi. Thank you. 	
mat	Do you think that Ricky's right, that it doesn't mean that anymore and that people should 'get over it' and 'move on'? Or does it come from the word 'mongoloid' which is the old word for people with Down's Syndrome? I mean what's your stance on this, Scott?	
scott	Okay. I think that Ricky is very... is really out of order actually. Because actually people with a learning disability still say that mong as a word is very, very offensive. And Ricky is paid on TV to do a show and actually he's... We think whilst there's the freedom of speech but actually if you want to say it personally as on the TV or on the radio that's fine. But he shouldn't be saying it in live performances on TV or on the radio. 	
mat	So you don't think then, Scott, that it has moved on as a word and you still think it means people with Down's Syndrome do you? 	
scott	I don't think it just means people with Down's Syndrome because I was called it the other week as you've met me before... 	
mat	What happened, tell us what happened Scott?	
scott	I was just walking down the street and some kids started calling me mongie. And I get this quite a lot actually people called me a spastic and different terms and different names. And people with learning disabilities think that this is wrong and this is out of order. And Mencap have their campaign called 'Stand By Me' and we should be reporting these sorts of hate crime. And actually that was really, really offensive to me and I went back and told the people that support me and they said to me that actually this shouldn't be happening at all. And I was talking to my mother and my mother was really, really upset for me, and said to me, "Well, Scott, we need to go to the police and report this" and unfortunately I couldn't go to the police and report it because I was too upset to do that. 	
liz	Tim, can I bring you in here? So Scott's saying using that kind of language could be seen as a hate crime, do you think that's right? 	
tim	Yeah I think context is important here. I think if it's actually being used directly at people in the street, then I think then certainly it's clearly being used in a hateful way and as a hate crime. I think one of the issues that I think perhaps has made it less of a clear cut situation is that a lot of people use language in a very different way when they are sort of using it in casual conversation and aren't necessarily directing it at someone. And I think it's easy for people to forget the origins of language. And actually one of the positive things to come out of this is that I'm sure there are people who would say I'm just going to mong out in front of the TV who I mean I... Years ago I remember using that kind of expression with my friends to describe inactivity. Now that was not, if I think about it, it was quite clear what the origins of the word are, but one of the people I used to share a flat with a guy who's sister had Down's Syndrome and I know he used to talk about monging out in front of the TV. What's interesting about that is that when language then falls into everyday use sometimes it takes a situation like the one with Ricky Gervais to actually remind people just what the origins of the language are. And to also remind people that a lot of the discrimination and the victimisation that goes with language is often overlooked. And there can be a bit of a perception that because you've got Braille in lifts and because you've got ramps on a lot of shop fronts that actually a lot of these battles have been fought and won and that we live in a very balanced society where there isn't discrimination towards people.  	
liz	We're talking about as well the origins of words and if people have forgotten the origins now does it really matter, are they really as offensive if we don't even know where they come from?	
mat	I mean the word 'gay' is a case in point isn't it? You look at old films and they go, "Hello Marjory, I'm feeling terribly gay today" and people fall about laughing now because that means homosexual now, you know. 	
liz	The times have changed.	
tim	That's an interesting example because gay has that particular meaning originally. And then it became used to describe sexuality. And then what sort of happened after that is there was a campaign to sort of retake the word 'queer' and then that became used a lot more widely. And then 'gay' has now fallen into a very casual everyday insult among teenagers, you know what they're like? Young people they'll use 'gay' that's okay 'you're so gay' it isn't actually about sexuality anymore and it just has a broad negative connotation which no-one could really even clarify exactly what the... in what context they're using it. And I think that's what happens with language it becomes a shorthand people just grab phrases and I suspect that there's a certain amount of that with Ricky Gervais. And I also suspect the fact that he had a couple of things to promote may have been part of the reason why he decided to light a touch paper. 	
mat	Well that wouldn't be for us to say. I can certainly chip in here. Flid, there's a word. As you know I call myself and my thalidomiders flids, it's a reclaimed word amongst us. However when Saskia used it on Big Brother a few Big Brothers ago she was thrown off I think, Big Brother. And when the man in Kentish Town Road angrily called me a flid just said, "Flid!" across the street he meant it in the old unreconstructed insult way. And I think... 	
tim	That's why context is important. 	
mat	I was just going to... it is a lot about context.	
liz	But do you so what you're a person with a learning difficulty when you're with your mates do you have like terms that you use for each other?	
scott	No we don't. 	
liz	So you don't you just call each other by your names and that kind of thing?	
scott	Yeah we treat each other normally. So I've never had that offer, that... I've never had that done to me in that way.	
liz	And tell me until this happened with Ricky Gervais did you like Ricky's comedy were you a fan of his?	
scott	I never watched him actually. 	
mat	Just a quite one we've lot Tim momentarily but we're trying to ring him back at the moment. 	
liz	Maybe he was offended.	
mat	I don't think so. 	
liz	Should I not have called him snapback?	
mat	Well he's in the middle of a training thing he's in a sports centre that's why we could hear those funny noises behind him. 	
liz	Scott, I've got, before we let you go I've got one final question, what often happens when we have these debates about language is people then get a little bit, "Well what words can we use, we never know what to say, anything's offensive these days, it's just political correctness gone mad" you know people have been talking about that in the press and saying, "Well what can we call disabled people" so what terms are okay, what are you happy in your different jobs, you as a disabled person, what would you say to that? 	
scott	I think that's another debate really about what terms we do use. I don't think there is a set term to be honest that we do use. I think it's about that we try and find out a term that is acceptable for everybody. And I agree with you political correctness has gone mad. There are a few people that are going to get offended whatever terms you use but actually we need to try and use the terms in the right way. 	
mat	Well thank you so much, Scott. And we were unable to get back to Tim unfortunately I think his phone's gone kaput. So we're going to say goodbye to you Scott. Can I just say how lovely it is to have you back on the programme, you're such an erudite and cohesive talker and that you're Ambassador for Mencap is just good news all round I think. So thanks for a lot for talking to us, Scott.	
liz	Thank you Scott. And also thank you Tim Rushby-Smith for joining us. 	
mat	When you eventually hear the rest of this conversation when you download the podcast.	
liz	Wherever you are. It comes up all the time when you were away last month we had Nicky Clark on talking about language, she's behind a lot of the campaigns around not using the word 'retard' and she very much called Ricky on this one. And in fact she got the apology from him. 	
mat	Yeah I read the... 	
liz	He actually rang her.  Did you see that?	
mat	I read the Twitter conversation that they had.	
liz	But it seems to me that this issue comes up so often, we're often talking about it. 	
mat	Indeed it does and...	
liz	Why?	
mat	I don't know 'cause golly the power of a word, for me it's about context a lot of the time and about timing and words do change. I mean crip there's a word. I remember when I met a couple of younger people, actually I'll name her, Lisa Hammond, disabled actress friend of mine, currently married to someone at the Royal Shakespeare Company, she hated the word crip, hated it, it made her embarrassed. And when I grilled her on it it was because she was still uncomfortable about identifying as a disabled person. Now she uses it all the time. 	
liz	But what can we say. Let's say you're not feeling a bit, okay for want of a better term, like brain dead, but that's probably offensive to brain dead people. 	
mat	You know you're not allowed to say brainstorm anymore in a meeting.	
liz	So if you're feeling a bit er what can you say? Because there was somebody who here was having a go at one of the critics of Ricky Gervais, a public critic, was saying instead of using... you know that mong means idiot or that's how you were using it, why don't you just call people an idiot? Well that's offensive too calling people idiots has a historical background. So it's like we unravel one layer and then there's another word, so I can understand people...	
mat	So is it a where do you draw the line thing?	
liz	A little bit. So last month when you had you on the audio from Japan great stuff yeah we noticed that you were using quite a lot of these sorts of terms. 	
mat	Was I?	
liz	I know you're pulling a face there going, "Oh" honestly.	
mat	Not that face, listeners, just a look of surprise. 	
liz	And so much so that Damon, our producer, has put them altogether and... 	
mat	Oh you've Gervaised me have you? 	
liz	Well we just want to have a listen and see...	
mat	Thank you very much. I've been tarred with the brush.	
liz	... how many times in a two/three minute interview you use some of these words that some of our listeners do still find offensive. Okay?	
mat	Okay. 	
liz	Let's count up. 
[Playing recording.
I stared down the camera and challenged any crip in Japan to a right. 
This is a group of crips and their mates all I can say is you've not really lived until you've seen a lot of Japanese spastics beating the hell out of each other. 
These guys sort of just jump from nothing straight into spasagags.
And the rest of the week has been me interviewing crips.
Now he's a young crip wheelie.
Not everyone's going to admit they've got a crip in the house.
Have you got any crips in there?
Their story was the same as many crips.
A lot of crips have been suffering.
He went and got 15 other crips.
For them to chuck a load of spas's into a wrestling ring and watch them beat crap out of each other.]	
mat	Wow. Please don't put that up as a standalone reportage.	
liz	Okay. So should you have done that?	
mat	Wow!	
liz	Why did you?	
mat	Okay I will, I'll admit one thing. Given the history of Ouch has been that we've reclaimed the 'S' word to some extent I thought that the juxtaposition of saying, "You haven't lived until you've seen a whole load of Japanese spastics..." it would be funny okay? So I thought that would be funny, I was conscious of it. I can genuine tell you, flipper on heart, that I did not... I was not aware of the rest of it I was just talking. I wasn't aware that I was using language.	
liz	No and I often say that if people are critical of the word personally to me and say, "Liz, why do you use the word crip and I can't believe you used it." I would say actually I need to be more conscious of it because I just use it, I'm not using it offensively, I'm using it yes as this reclaimed, it's a word that we use to describe each other, I'm very comfortable with it. But of course people mightn't be. And if people started tuning into Ouch and they go, "Oh my God this crip word"...	
mat	Can you imagine...	
liz	... and they listen to the... 	
mat	... if you put that up on Twitter. Don't please. I'm asking our own producer, Damon Rose, please don't put that up on Twitter. 	
liz	Somebody's going to make a rap of it and put it on YouTube.	
mat	Right, Zilwood if you're listening, don't. Any of the criphoppers out there please don't use me as your crip toy. No but I suppose it does highlight the issue because one man's crip is another man's mong kind of thing is that what you're saying? 	
liz	I'm just saying I think we are totally now, we just use it without thinking, we're not using it for effect, we're not using it even to be controversial most of the time, it's just a word that is synonymous with disability for us. I think that there are people out there, comedians and whatever, and maybe other broadcasters who will use it for effect and it's different. And a lot of the times it is, it is an 'in' word of course and it's a bit of an in gang word but not everyone who wants to be... you know who wants to listen to Ouch will like it, it's something we need to think about. I mean, listeners, you will I'm sure let us know. There were some strong feelings, I met somebody at the weekend and they said yeah I get why you do it, I have no problem with the word 'crip' but I think that if you're broadcasting or you're a public face of disability or even as Ricky Gervais is a celebrity and you're using words like 'mong' or 'crip' you've got a responsibility to use the correct words because not everyone will think about it.
[Playing music jingle: The Ouch Talk Show.]	
mat	Okay, listeners, we have our regular Paralympic expert for an update this month, Tony Garrett on the phone again, but this time from The Gambia.	
liz	Hello, Tony. 	
tony	Hello there. 	
liz	And are you there on holiday or are you sitting in on some sport event over there? 	
tony	No I can safely say my Paralympic travels have finished this year and just arrived for two weeks holiday in The Gambia. So it's time to relax and experience what looks like a beautiful country. 	
liz	Well thank you for joining us on your holiday then. Obviously now we like our monthly updates on what's happening. And firstly we want to talk to you about by now people should have got their Paralympic tickets.	
tony	Yes. As we know there's been a tremendous demand for Paralympic tickets and money's been taken out of people's accounts within the last week. I haven't double checked I'm not quite sure myself what I've got, so when I get back from holiday I'll have to find out. But I think lots of people are very excited about the Paralympics. And tickets sales in the first phase clearly went very, very well. 	
liz	And if people didn't get tickets this time around will there be an opportunity to get them in the future before they begin?	
tony	Yes there will be. I'm not aware of the exact scheduled timetable for that but there will be a second opportunity to get Paralympic tickets, that's for sure. 	
liz	On the last show you introduced us to sitting volleyball and since then you've been at the event in Rotterdam in mid October I think so how did that go? 	
tony	Yes absolutely we were talking about it in the lat programme and sitting volleyball, it was one of my first experiences, I've seen it a few times but not over a period of three or four days. And it was a really interesting sport. For most sports you see athletes putting their trainers on and putting their football boots on, well in sitting volleyball the guys take their legs off because a lot of the players are amputees, so it was one of the most bizarre sights I have seen for a long while; the players take their artificial legs off, they're all put into a shopping trolley like a Tesco's or Sainsbury's shopping trolley and wheeled off the court until the end of a match when they come back. To me that was one of the most bizarre moments that you see in life. 	
liz	Are they not labelled or something, it could just be a whole limb free for all otherwise.	
tony	Well I think it could be. You've got 15 teams with legs but each team has got its own shopping trolley and I'm sure they're clearly labelled. But what was most bizarre was at the end of a match the GB official brings the trolley back and places all the legs in different seats for them all to go back and put them on. I found it one of the most bizarre sights I've seen in a long while. 	
mat	I cannot wait for the TV coverage of that and listening to the commentator trying to say something while that happens. 	
tony	Absolutely. There's a lot of very good jokes there I'm sure. 	
mat	So let's get this straight, so the prosthetic limbs give you an unfair advantage in sitting volleyball or something. What's the thinking behind this? 	
tony	No. No what happens is that people don't use any legs at all they just... because they're sitting on the floor so they've just got their normal legs, take them off and they just sit on the floor. Not everyone is an amputee because there are people playing who have got muscle wastage and there's a couple of people I'll tell you about them in a minute, so it's six players on a court and, as I say, you don't have to have, you're not necessarily an amputee, it's a variety there are couple of ex-soldiers competing for Great Britain. 	
liz	When you were out there you caught up with women sitting volleyball contender Martine Wright, who is she then again Tony?	
tony	Yeah as you say part of the reason for going out there was to catch up with the squad both the men's and the women's squad. And one of the women players I caught up with was Martine Wright. Now Martine Wright was involved in the London bombings a number of years ago and lost both her legs. And I caught up with her and I asked her initially to take us through the events that unfolded on that unbelievably fateful and tragic day. 
[Playing interview. 
Martine Wright: Just a normal day on the way to work and like many others that morning, every morning actually in London, I got on the tube at Moorgate and was sat five foot away from one of the suicide bombers that decided to hit London on the 7th July. And then pretty much was in hospital for over a year learning to walk and just trying to get my life back really.

Tony Garrett: After that what made you decide that you wanted to become involved with Great Britain's sitting volleyball?

Martine Wright: I think within rehabilitation you go through many stages whether it's in hospital or out of hospital and I did do quite a lot when coming out of hospital. But the real thing was I went back to work and found that work, what I did before as an international marketing manager, didn't hold my attention anymore my values had completely changed. So I really wanted something for me, something where I could channel that ambition that I used to have into something else. And sport was just one of those things where I'd always been very sporty at school and university. And again I had an opportunity. I went to Stoke Mandeville, went to the Amputee Games which is like a potential Paralympic day, went there tried all different sports but absolutely fell in love with sitting volleyball.]	
mat	Wow! So Tony bottom line here are the women's team good enough to be put through? 	
tony	Well this is part of the debate that will carry on for the next couple of months. The men's team have been selected by the British Paralympic Association because their results over the last few months seem to be encouraging and positive. They didn't do that well at the Europeans in Rotterdam but they booked their place and there is progress there. Now with the women it's slightly different. They've only really been playing as a team the last 18 months. And Tim Hollingsworth who's the Chief Exec of the BPA was out there and I caught up with him to just get him to explain what the procedure would be if the women were to be selected or not. 	
tim H	It's very important that there is no free tracksuit on the team in Paralympics GB. You have to have a certain level of qualification and credible performance to ensure that people realise that fundamentally Paralympic sport is about high performance, and it's about the sport. 	
liz	Tim Hollingsworth, Head of the British Paralympic Association there. What's your personal feeling on this Tony, do you think they'll get through? 
	
tony	I think at the moment it's very much a 50:50 decision. They could have done with... they only had one win during the week, and they were leading Finland on the Thursday, a match they looked like they were going to win and then they just lost their way. So I think very much it's still a 50:50 decision. And then the argument is if we want women's volleyball to progress then it will be great to see a team there because it is about progression and it's looking ahead to 2016 and other events. The other side of it is, and Tim mentioned it, we're a very competitive Paralympic nation and Tim Hollingsworth has made it quite clear that there's no free tracksuits on offer, it's changed a lot in years to come. So I would say it's very much 50:50 at the moment. If you asked to push me I would say they might not make it for 2012 but I hope I'm wrong. 	
liz	And so before we let you go off and enjoy your holiday, what's coming up in the Paralympics calendar, what can we look ahead in November? 	
tony	The Paralympic calendar sort of comes to an end very shortly. But we have one final event and it's in Great Britain, it's the visually impaired European Judo Championships. 	
MAT	Uh.	
tony	They'll be taking place in Crawley between the 18th and 20th November.	
liz	No Mat why the "uh" what was that about? 	
mat	Oh well you know me I'm a disabled martial artist and whilst I love that blind judo players combat or Britain it's always slightly rankled me a little that it's the only combat sport that disabled people are apparently allowed to do. AND also I don't really see why only blind people can do judo why you're not allowed to be, I don't know, deaf and do judo. Because it starts by holding each other and grappling each other so no-one would have an advantage. Do you have an opinion on that, Tony? 	
tony	I think it's a very good point. It brings into the whole angle about deaf Olympics and deaf athletes competing at the Paralympics I think it's a very interesting question. On the face of it I would absolutely tend to agree with you. I mean there's obviously rules and guidelines that have been put down and most of the players have a bit of sight that's for sure. So I would see no reason why that couldn't take place. But Great Britain have got a squad of about six players and they didn't do very well in Beijing but I think they've moved on and I think European Championships in Crawley will give them a chance to see what their focus is like in the build up for next year. So it'll be an interesting one. 	
mat	And we have the five time Paralympian Ian Rose back in contention for next year. Now how old must he be? 	
tony	Well absolutely I mean Ian has been around for a number of years. It's amazing that he's back competing he wasn't around for a while, but he's there. 	
liz	How old is he?	
tony	Ian, I'm sure will be making sure he puts up a really good performance. 	
liz	Yeah, how old is he Tony do you know? 	
tony	Well I have to say my stats are slipping on this one and I can't honestly tell you how old he is. 	
mat	Well I mean he'll not have been allowed to compete until he was 18. Fives times four, what's five fours Liz?	
liz	20.	
mat	20. All right. He could... 	
tony	This will be his, if he makes this, this will be his sixth Paralympics. 	
mat	Wow!	
liz	And isn't there something you know I can't remember this myself but is it something like the men's tennis champion, world champion, he's a fairly old guy as well.	
mat	He's like 50 or something. 	
tony	Peter Norfolk.	
liz	That's right. 	
tony	They call him the Quadfather.	
mat	That's brilliant.	
tony	And he's got a couple of children but yeah Peter Norfolk the Quadfather is his...	
liz	We had him on the show, absolutely. And so is it something that's unique to the Paralympics where we tend to have some older sports people than in the regular Olympics?	
tony	Yeah. I think that's an interesting point. There are certainly a number of, shall we say, well established Paralympic athletes that are keeping going. What I would say is that that is changing a lot now because the quality of the competition is more intense, it is coming back. But there are certain sports, judo, we just mentioned Ian Rose, Peter Norfolk, there are a few players in some of the sports. You'll find there's quite a few in archery, for example, there's a couple of 50 year old Great Britain archers and I guess you can understand that because that's very much... and likewise in shooting one of the GB shooters is 55. 	
mat	Wow!	
tony	But I guess that's not too physical a sport and it's mental toughness and accuracy. But I think we're going to see less of that as Paralympic athletes become more competitive. 	
liz	Great. So always you bring new angle to our understanding of Paralympics. Thanks Tony. 	
tony	That is an absolute pleasure. 
[Jingle: If you have a question or predicament that's burning a hole in your brain and you'd like us to help then email the show now ouch@bbc.co.uk that's ouch@bbc.co.uk if you don't you might explode. Fact!]	
mat	Right well rather exciting again - I love it when we kind of have these kind of young fresh talents in the studio, Liz. We have got Bianca Nicholas in the studio. 	
liz	Hello.	
bianca	Hello. 	
liz	Thank you for joining us. 	
BIANCA	Thank you for inviting me.	
liz	Now we've got you here, yes listeners she's disabled, Cystic Fibrosis I believe. 	
BIANCA	Yes.	
mat	That's quite a good one. That's quite a good one.	
liz	Good one, good one yeah. Don't have that often on Veg, Veg or Veg our quiz so that's good. You've just launched a single on the iTunes charts. 	
BIANCA	Yeah. 	
liz	So we want to talk to you about that in a minute but first let's find out a little bit about you. So singing you've always been a good singer? 	
BIANCA	Well other people think I'm a good singer. I'm not going to be bigheaded! But I've always enjoyed singing it's like my kind of creative outlet, my release kind of my way of coping with things for as long as I can remember really. 	
mat	And you've had these kind of accolades of what a good singer since you were about 15. Who are the people that have been singing your praises? 	
BIANCA	It kind of all started when I had a wish with Starlight Children's Foundation which is a wish granting charity.	
mat	Okay.	
BIANCA	And I wanted to record a couple of covers and also my wish wasto be a recording artist and to perform live. So they invited me to sing at Starlight Ball which is something that they used to hold every year and as a surprise I did a duet with Will Young. 	
mat	With Will Young?	
liz	Now was it a good surprise? Were you a fan of his at the time?	
BIANCA	Yeah.
	
liz	Phew!	
BIANCA	Well I mean I did get to like see him before and have like a little rehearsal because I thought I'd be singing the song on my own. 	
mat	What did you sing together? Did you duet?	
BIANCA	We did 'Something Inside So Strong'. 	
liz	Oh not a dry eye in the house. 	
mat	Oh! 	
BIANCA	Apparently I've heard that even the waiters were crying. 	
mat	I think that's just because they realised how much they were getting paid for the hour. But which bit did you do? "Ooh er, ooh er" or the other bit?	
BIANCA	No. 	
mat	Don't actually sing it because we've got copyright issues.	
BIANCA	Okay. He basically it was one of the songs I'd recorded for my wish and he listened to that and he'd worked out all the harmonies and things like that, so he kind of let me do a verse and then he did a verse and then we did like harmonies in the chorus. 	
liz	What an amazing experience.	
mat	And was he cool or was he like, "There, there."	
BIANCA	He was really lovely. No he was really nice. 	
liz	So he wasn't patronising or anything?	
BIANCA	Not at all. And I was in hospital I think probably a week or two after with a chest infection he sent me a Get Well card. So he's really lovely. 	
mat	Yeah. We like Will Young. 	
BIANCA	We do. 	
liz	Now for people that don't know just briefly what is Cystic Fibrosis?	
BIANCA	It's a genetic condition which it affects the lungs. It affects all the organs in the body really but it's mainly the lungs and the pancreas.	
liz	So affecting the lungs doesn't that make singing a bit of a challenge?	
BIANCA	It does because you can get a lot of chest infections, my immune system isn't as good, so if I have colds it takes forever to get rid of. But I think singing has helped to keep my lungs strong because part of the physiotherapy you have for CF is breathing exercises and obviously you do a lot of breathing when you're singing. So it's helped to keep my lungs strong and I think it's part of the reason I've been doing so well. 	
mat	As we record this of course Adele has famously been told not only to stop singing but to stop talking now for long periods of time. Have you got any advice for her because she listens to this, don't you Adele?	
BIANCA	Has she got any advice for me? How to be number one? 	
liz	Your career's not doing bad, you've just mentioned... 	
BIANCA	No not at all.	
liz	... in passing the other day that "Hello magazine got my age wrong a couple of weeks ago." 	
mat	And talk about number one... 	
BIANCA	I'm only 15...	
mat	No you're not. 	
BIANCA	I won't be complaining about that in a few years time.	
mat	You're 22. But you talk about number one but you your single reached number one in the vocal section of the iTunes chart, sorry not tart, chart, and the highest number so far in the main downloads chart has been 88, that's pretty good. 	
BIANCA	Yeah it's impressive like for someone who hasn't had like the PR machine behind them and a record deal and all that kind of thing, so I'm really proud that it did so well. 	
mat	And now what about the old X Factor didn't you get almost to the... you got to the boot camp or...	
BIANCA	I got to boot camp in 2008 yeah. 	
mat	That's the bit before they go on telly the live final. 	
BIANCA	Yeah I mean I wasn't I think I was only on the show for about a minute or so.	
liz	It doesn't matter you were on X Factor. 	
BIANCA	Yeah I mean I think that it was something like 180,000 people auditioned and I got down to the last 1,000 or something. 	
mat	Did they treat you like an equal or did they focus on the disability, just out of interest because I didn't see it.	
BIANCA	They tried to focus on it but I wasn't... I always say I'm happy to talk about it but I don't really want to play the poor me card.	
liz	Because they would have loved that wouldn't they?	
BIANCA	Yeah. 	
liz	They would have loved it. Now what we love to do is when we have our favourite musicians on we like to get you on and find out a little bit about you, teach our listeners about you with our quick fire questions. Okay?	
BIANCA	Okay. 	
liz	Don't think about them too much they're going to come at your fast, we're going to alternate.	
mat	Yeah	
BIANCA	Don't put me under pressure I'm rubbish. 	
mat	Don't think about pressure just unlink your brain and just say the first stuff that comes into your mind, okay?	
BIANCA	Okay. 	
liz	Okay. And number one. If I didn't live in the United Kingdom I'd like to live in...?	
BIANCA	Somewhere in America. 	
mat	Salad or pizza?	
BIANCA	Pizza definitely. 	
liz	Television or internet?	
BIANCA	Internet.	
mat	Ball gown or jeans?	
BIANCA	Ball gown. 	
liz	If I could have one magic power it would be...?	
BIANCA	To be invisible. 	
mat	If I could swap places with someone famous I'd swap with?	
BIANCA	Christina Aguilera. 	
liz	Rain or shine?	
BIANCA	Shine. 	
mat	Still or sparkling?	
BIANCA	Sparkling.	
liz	If I were an animal I'd be?	
BIANCA	Tiger.	
mat	Grrr. Customers who like Bianca Nicholas also like...? 	
BIANCA	Oh I don't know. Who am I like? I don't know who I'm like.	
liz	Musically who do you think you're like?	
BIANCA	Well obviously I'm a big Christina fan, Amy Winehouse, Adele that kind of soulful stuff. 	
liz	Fantastic. And look if people want to find out more about you other than seeing you in various magazines how can they do that? 	
BIANCA	I have a Facebook fan page that I'm always updating. And my Twitter I'm really kind of into the social networking.	
liz	And have you got a website as well? 	
BIANCA	Not at the moment. I've got my MySpace as well. 	
mat	They don't need websites the young you see, Liz. 	
liz	Really. 	
mat	Websites are out now, apparently it's all Facebook and Twitter.	
liz	Oh man! Really? 	
mat	I don't know what it’s called…	
liz	Tweeting.	
mat	Tweeting sorry. 	
BIANCA	Tweeting. 	
liz	Okay, Bianca, thanks so much for joining us.	
BIANCA	Thank you. 	
liz	Stay with us, we'll be back with you in a few seconds so you can announce your track. Over to Mat for the closing credits.	
mat	Thanks to the team. This month Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey and the studio manager was Tony Baker. The producer was Damon Rose and we'll be back early next month. 	
liz	Goodbye everyone and cue Bianca. 	
BIANCA	This is my single and it's called Hold On To Your Dreams.
[Playing music]