Ouch Podcast #77 – October 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Liz Carr 

Liz	Welcome to our podcast. Thanks for seeking us out and downloading us. I'm Liz Carr and with me today is freelance albino, Rob Crossan. Rob, what's on the show? 	
rob	Freelance albino. Lots of guests today, Liz. Nicky Clark, mum of two children of autism will be joining us to look over recent news. You may know Nicky from her 'Don't Play Me, Pay Me' campaign. And in about 25 minutes artist Bobby Baker recent winner of the Mind Book of the Year prize joins us to talk about her new show. 	
liz	How did disabled people fare in the Japan tsunami and subsequently nuclear incident? Our man Mat Fraser is there right now and will be on the phone to us shortly. Plus disabled man's man, Tony Garrett joins us later to talk about the London 2012 Paralympic build up. 	
rob	There's more, so stay tuned. 
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show.]	
liz	Great to be back in the studio with you Rob. 	
rOb	Indeed, thank you very much, it's been lovely to be here and we also have a little surprise on the line don't we? 	
liz	We do. Mat of course isn't with us today but he is on the line from - where are you Mat?	
Mat	Konnichiha!	
liz	Konnichiha!	
rob	Konnichiha!	
mat	I'm in a hotel just outside of Shanghai airport in downtown Japan.	
liz	So that begs the question why? Why are you there? 	
mat	Well on gosh so many reasons, Liz. Basically do you remember the guys from Shine On came over to film us doing the podcast?	
liz	Okay we had a Japanese film... yes absolutely I remember that.	
mat	That was a while back, about a year and a half ago. Anyway I stared down the camera and challenged any crip in Japan to a fight. Everybody mocked me at the time I seem to remember. About a year later out of the blue I got a call and they were covering the Odazuna Championships which is a pro-wrestling style all disabled fight basically, and I got invited to take part. And so then when I agreed to do it they thought they might build one of the programmes around my being here and so I spent... I did the fight event which was, believe me, one of the most bizarre and incredible things I've ever been and seen. 	
liz	Tell us, come on tell us a little bit more about that first. 	
rob	Because what we're forgetting here, is that since you laid down this challenge, Mat, there has been a fairly major tsunami, and I'm wondering really a bloke with thalidomide coming along to start fights with disabled people in the wake of a tsunami it's the last thing they need isn't it surely? 	
liz	Not the most supportive olive branch is it? 	
rob	No. 	
mat	No or even the twig off a bamboo shoot. You'd think it was a bit incongruous to say the best...	
rob	What I thought we'd be better off sending a good parcel rather than you but hey ho. 	
mat	Although probably they would eat me raw as a piece of sashimi but anyway, if they were cannibals which they're clearly not. You forget people at the beeb that I'm actually being filmed right now the NHK crew who have become my pals over the last week. Anyway, the thing was basically that this group of crips and their mates, their allies who are all really into the pro-wrestling style of fighting which is the kind of WWF over the top slightly rehearsed kind of wrestling that they have, but also can cause injury. And this is their wrestling championships 2011. The reason it's become very special is because Mr Kunin Takahama who is a massively famous comedy TV producer on mainstream comedy Japanese television, decided he wanted to take part and host the event so he kind of elevated the exposure up to this massive event. And so guys all I can say is you've not really lived until you've seen a load of Japanese spastics beating the hell out of each other in a professional wrestling ring with the lights, the smoke, the music and the audience full of disabled people absolutely lovely everything and screaming for blood.	
rob	This seems to be providing quite a lot of levity against what I'm presuming is quite a bleak backdrop of...	
mat	Well I think... 	
rob	... the area of Japan you're in right now. Can you tell me a little bit about that? 	
mat	Six and a half months since the disaster and I think basically what we were witnessing was a desperate need to have a laugh because life's been so awfully tough for everybody in Japan. The rest of the week has been me interviewing crips in varying different states of adversity because of either the earthquake, the tsunami, the nuclear power plant incident or all three. 	
liz	There's been disabled people knocking on the doors looking for other disabled people tell me about that? 	
mat	Yeah. That's in Ishinomaki I joined Shunskabi-san, now he's a young crip wheelie, he's got the sports car, the flashy jacket, the rings, the gelled sticky up hair - he had a stroke five years ago, he lives with his parents and he tirelessly with his mates, some of whom are able-bodied, are trying to set up an organisation but they don't have a database of disabled people. They want to help disabled people who've been affected by the recent disasters but there is no database, there's no government database. This is against the backdrop of the Japanese traditionally being ashamed of disability. So not everyone's going to admit they've got a crip in the house, so to speak. So these guys with limited mobility are sort of tracking from house to house leafleting saying, "Have you got any crips in there? Can we help? Do they need any help?" 	
rob	Has this been a successful campaign, is this working?	
mat	Well it's just... as I commented to the film crew at the time what I was witnessing was literally the beginning of grass roots disability activism. 	
liz	You've been in and you've been filming in Fukushima where there was the nuclear incident as well. How are disabled people coping in that area and in those conditions?	
mat	Well the conditions are pretty weird. For us nuclear incidents to us are what happened in a film or abroad and to actually be at the border of the 20km exclusion zone next to policemen who, you know, you wonder for their health in 20 years time frankly because they've got prolonged exposure was very sobering. And there's an eerie nothingness around there, it's very strange because it's been completely evacuated. I went to some temporary housing where I met a 60 year old disabled woman with mobility issues who's being cared for by her 80 year old mother and of course their story was the same as many crips; they got evacuated to emergency shelters with two or three hundred other panicking able-bodied Japanese people and they just didn't have the facilities to cope. So this poor woman spent 15 days sitting in her wheelchair before anybody came and asked her if she needed to wash. And that kind of stuff the hardship that a lot of crips have been suffering is just typical of the stories that I've been hearing all week, I mean against which is obviously their incredible resilience and occasionally stories of like Mr Okawa from Sendai who realised that this case the Sendai emergency centre where he was and he like... because let's not forget it was also snowing and freezing cold at that time. And he went and got 15 other crips and said, "Come on up to his office which served to all intents and purposes as an independent living centre, and they all duveted up and sat in their chairs and waited for 24 hours until electricity came back on so some of them could charge their chairs and they did get heating. And that kind of grim hardship this is what they've been going through. 	
liz	Mat, it's been brilliant to talk to you. With all that you've been through and the radiation areas are you okay, are you safe?	
mat	Oh fine. You know everybody said eat iodine pills when you go over but of course the Japanese are the world experts on coping with radiation after the Second World War, and wouldn't you know it, as luck would have it, the traditional Japanese diet of Miso soup and eating as much seaweed as you can stuff into your gob is the best defence. So I have been eating shredded nori, I've been eating Wagami, I've been eating rice balls covered in seaweed, rice with seaweed, just seaweed on its own. 	
liz	Thank you for the...	
rob	Mat Fraser too strange to live, too weird to die. 	
liz	Mat, enjoy the rest of your trip if enjoy is the right word. But we look forward to seeing you soon.	
rob	It's really fascinating.	
mat	Sayonara.	
liz	Sayonara. 	
rob	You can hear our full conversation with Mat in Japan in a special podcast extra that we'll be putting out in the next couple of weeks. And so an incredible conversation and I wonder it makes you realise just how easily something like that could happen here and how on earth would the likes of me and you and other people with disabilities in the UK cope with everything being flattened overnight. 	
liz	And it's not just the tsunami, the nuclear stuff but the hurricane in the States recently. The comet, did you read about the comet that was... no the asteroid wasn't it?	
rob	It was an asteroid, yeah. 	
liz	Oh my God coming to earth. 	
rob	How much more can we be expected to realistically take. 	
liz	I think you know talking to Mat he said something about how what were seen are the sorts of things we always saw in Sci-Fi films. 	
rob	And it's now all becoming rather too close to the bone.	
liz	Yes. And I don't want to be all doom and gloom but it does put the fear of whatever up me. 	
rob	What would you do though, you know, if suddenly something like this happened and you ran out of the drugs you need for your disability? I think it might be all right because like the rioting it may well be a case you can just trundle your chair through the smashed window of the nearest pharmacy and help yourself. 	
liz	And it would all be fine. 	
rob	You'd like to think that that would be okay. I mean I think if tubes are still running it could be great because the first thing that's going to fail are going to be the tube barriers. So people who are claiming DLA might be able to get around a little cheaper. Then again it's far flung, what do you think?	
liz	I'm not sure even if you could get through the glass into the pharmacy, this is presuming that you can get out of your house.	
rob	Yeah there might be some tree or asteroid on your doorstep. 	
liz	Absolutely, you know, we were hearing there about people that had to stay in their house for weeks on end. No electricity I'm thinking well charging an electric wheelchair, charging any gadget though, you know, seriously. 	
rob	Quite a lot of people with disabilities do spend weeks on end in their house anyway don't they?	
liz	Are you saying it would make no difference?	
rob	I think some people might not notice, that's all I'm saying.	
liz	There's been an apocalypse. In fact we could be like the only people that survive like cockroaches and disabled people. 	
rob	I think disabled people are so stoical and as Mat was saying about the obviously the Japanese with the gamma face of adversity, stoicism, Dunkirk spirit whatever you want to call it, and I think there's a strong chance actually that people with disabilities could cope a little better than normoids.	
liz	You reckon?	
rob	Well it's possible as long as your cell phone works and you can phone your carer if things get a bit out of control. 	
liz	But you know there's no way because you think... remember the Millennium bug and we were how are we going to cope without computers if they all go whatever when it chimes at midnight.	
rob	That was incredible wasn't it? And it actually turned out that only one weather station in Portsmouth failed. That was it, incredible. 	
liz	But the thought of how we'd cope without everyone on line. You think of how much we rely on computers and the whole thing. So even it's like a... Because I know Mat, I wish he was here to talk about it really, but we've got 2012 isn't it the main calendar are predicting it's the end of the world as various prophecies about it.  	
rob	We already figured that out it's because he turns 50 next year. That's why Mat thinks 2012 is the end of the world. 	
liz	It's the end of the world for him... 	
rob	Total self absorbing.	
liz	... and his career. 	
rob	Yeah it's career death not actual death. 	
liz	I just think... 	
rob 	I think you're right. I think maybe younger people with disabilities we are, we've all grown up with the internet and we're slightly useless. I think if I was going to have to be with somebody should the Armageddon happen it would be an old school disabled person like Peter White. He'd just build a raft wouldn't he, he's an analogue sort of person. I'd be alright with him. He'd have loads of tinned food in. I think that would be fine. 	
liz	He is of course the esteemed In Touch presenter - 50 years they've been going.	
rob	Yes that's right.	
liz	50 years! 	
rob	Can you imagine, I'd love to actually hear an In Touch programme from the '60s or the '50s to see how blindness and visual impairment was tackled in those days. 	
liz	I interviewed him about it and made the faux pas of thinking he'd be presenting it from the past 50 years. Oops things not to do. 	
rob	He's not that old. 	
liz	So you'd want him on your side.	
rob	Yeah I'd want an old school crip on my side yeah. So I think they've probably got a few more vital life skills.	
liz	It could be that the end of the world, you know, it's sort of... it's technological that all of our support networks that's what closes down. 	
rob	So I want somebody who has experience of adult life pre-internet essentially because they'll have some kind of atavistic skills which I don't have, like semaphore - they'll know things like that. 	
liz	Actually no you just want to be with the boy scouts. That's what you need to do.	
rob	Too weird, Liz, too weird. 	
liz	A lot of carer's PAs are ex boy scouts and girl scouts, we'll be fine absolutely fine. But don't you think... 	
rob	It's if they kill the carers that's when we're in trouble. As long as the carer's are around. 	
liz	Basically we're either going to be the first to go in a survival of the fittest kind of way or we'll be the last to go because we'll... 	
rob	In a fit of cannibalism. 	
liz	In a fit of cannibalism. 	
rob	There wouldn't be much to eat on your bones. 	
liz	Thanks very much. I don't know whether to feel glad about that or sad about that. 	
rob	I'm sad about it, you're glad about it. 	
liz	To be honest I can't believe that you twisted such a serious topic round. 	
rob	Into my eating you. 	
liz	Absolutely. 
[Jingle: The Ouch Talk Show as every month as a podcast. Go to bbc.co.uk/podcast. Click on entertainment and scroll down until you find us. You can subscribe or stream us on the web. We're also on iTunes.]	
rob	Tony Garrett, the BBC's disability sports exec is here with us right now. Hello Tony. 	
rob	Hello there. Great to see you guys. 	
liz	Good to have you back. Now we want to talk about what's happening in Paralympic world this month in a minute. But before then we have a quiz for you. 	
tony	Okay.	
liz	So I'm guessing you like sport, you've got a competitive nature? 	
tony	Certainly have. 	
liz	Okay. But how much do you know about what the British public think about the Paralympics that's the key here okay. So our quiz is we've been out on the streets of Salford, Greater Manchester to find out how much they know about the Paralympics - totally unscientific sample, just the first ten people we grabbed, okay?	
rob	Question one, Tony; we asked ten members of the public can you name a Paralympian athlete. So before we find out the answer, Tony, how many of those ten people do you think were able to name a Paralympic athlete?	
tony	I would hope five. 	
rob	And would you care to guess who they named?	
tony	Tanni Grey Thompson probably would be the only one. And maybe Ellie Simmonds would be the two that I would hope that they would mention, but maybe more. 	
rob	Let's listen and see how well you did.
[Playing clip:
Tanni Grey Lewis
I recognise her but I couldn't give you a name. 
In a wheelchair, can't think of her name now.
Tanni Grey Thompson
Tanni Grey
Rick Hansen
I've seen a few recently on the TV but I can't name one.
Tomkinson. Is it Tomkinson, Tomlinson.
Pistorius is, of course, the famous South African, but I'm afraid I'm struggling with English ones.
Emma Thompson is it?
Tanni Grey Thompson]
Did we have a Christorius and Tanni Grey Lewis there? Legends. 	
tony	Legends of the sport. 	
rob	So four people were able to name a Paralympian. Five if we're including Rick Hanson the former Canadian wheelchair athlete. Three said Tanni Grey Thompson and one said Oscar Pistorius. 	
liz	You've got it spot on.	
tony	Five we not bad then.	
liz	No.	
tony	Which is slightly worrying but I guess that's predictable. 	
liz	And the lack of... interesting though that the lack of British ones that they knew, really it was just Tanni wasn't it? 	
tony	Yeah I'm surprised they didn't pick up on Ellie. 	
rob	Come on, Liz, next question. 	
liz	Okay. We asked ten members of the public; do deaf people compete in the Paralympics okay. And first of all let's just establish that they definitely don't. 	
tony 	Correct.	
liz	That's right, okay.	
tony	They have their own games, their own Olympics but they do not compete in the Paralympics.	
liz	Okay. So how many people correctly said no deaf people don't compete in the Paralympics? 	
tony	I would imagine that they'd be quite a few people that would expect deaf people to be competing next year. 	
liz	Let's see if you're right. Can I get a number?	
tony	I'll go eight. 	
liz	Okay. Let's go for it? 
[Playing clip:
I would like to think so. 
I don't know the answer to that frankly, I don't know how the definition works. 
I don't know. I'm not sure that they can't. 
I don't see why not as long as they're able to move, that's all that's required isn't it?
Why not?
Probably not.
I don't think I would class that as a disability.
They would have a huge advantage if they did. 
Well yes because it's balance and so on isn't it.
Extra spatial awareness and things I should imagine that's all part of it.]
	
rob	Not sure if I'd class that as a disability! Controversial! 	
liz	It sounded quite aggressive as well didn't it? 	
rob	I know. 	
liz	Pretty much spot on. I know you wanted the eight but actually you, kind of your initial thing, no-one really knows do they?	
tony	They don't. And it just goes to show a little bit of ignorance on people's parts and clearly...	
rob	So the answer is nobody knew at all, it's too confusing. But some great answers nonetheless. So finally we asked ten members of the public will you watch the Paralympics when it comes on TV? So how many people, Tony, do you think said yes they will watch the Paralympics on TV?	
tony	This is a really tricky one...	
rob	Stop bluffing I want a number.	
tony	We'll say it's a tricky one. I would say six. 	
rob	Okay let's take a listen.

[Playing clip: 
Yes I would, I might even go because it's difficult to get tickets for real thing.
Much as I can do, yeah.
Yes probably I'll watch some of it.
Really whatever happens to be on when I turn it on.
We don't have television, we're not a very good interview.
Probably not.
I enjoy sport and so I'll watch it yes.
Yes.
Maybe, if it's marketed in a right way maybe.
Possibly.]
So six out of ten people said yes. You were absolutely spot on, good job. 	
liz	That's three out of three.	
rob	Especially the one who said we might even go because it's been difficult getting tickets for the real Olympics.	
tony	That always cracks me up, you know, it's the Olympics and the Paralympics and people always sort of cut through and say the 'real' Olympics or the other Olympics. It's very straightforward but you can understand. I think there was a really interesting answer though on that was "if it's marketed well"	
liz	Do you think that's right as well?	
tony	I think there's an awful lot of work to be done as we move forward to next year in terms of the marketing, in terms of encouraging people to watch the Paralympics. I mean channel four are doing a lot on that already, I'm well aware of that.	
rob	When he says marketing he means promotion essentially. If we're bombarded with trails for the Paralympics we're more likely to watch it. 	
tony	Very much so. I think one of the interesting things on that was, you know, obviously Channel 4 have got the television rights for the Paralympics, the BBC when they put their bid in said, "Look off the back of the Olympics we'll go straight into the Paralympics, it's one big branding exercise, one big marketing continuous summer sport." Channel 4 took a different approach and it'll be interesting to see the outcome. 	
rob	I'm finding this very interesting because obviously the BBC aren't showing any Paralympics coverage, Channel 4 have got it and they've got 120 hours I think they're broadcasting; 12 hours a day almost.	
tony	Correct.	
rob	150 hours, sorry I've just been corrected. And this sounds extraordinary because as me and Liz were chatting about it earlier some of these Paralympic sports are not the most eye catching are they. What was the one you were talking about... 	
liz	Possibly not. 	
rob	... they just stand still or they sit... 	
liz	Wheelchair fencing I believe.	
rob	Wheelchair fencing.	
liz	It's just two people wheelchair users and their chairs are held down so they don't actually move. There's no movement.	
rob	Is that one going to be on telly? I mean I presume they all are, aren't they?	
tony	There's 20 Paralympic sports all will be on the television, clearly some of the sports as we've just touched on, will be difficult to cover live. I mean wheelchair fencing is a good example; two competitors their wheelchairs are locked in. I'm sure goalball, volleyball, boccia - there's a whole host of Paralympic sports that are really good sport but how good are they to keep a TV audience captivated and really interested is the question.	
rob	I'm wondering if Channel 4 have maybe bitten off a bit more than they can chew. I was thinking about it earlier I quite like this, this is going back to what Channel 4 was like in the '80s when it was just hours of minority programming that almost nobody watched. I'm quite looking forward to it. So they'll be Countdown, Pobs Programme, and then eight hours of wheelchair fencing - it's going to be great, I can't wait. Back to Channel bore!	
liz	Tony I have to ask what's goalball?	
rob	Yes.	
tony	Goalball's a sport for visually impaired, for blind people.	
rob	Why don't I know that?	
tony	European championships are coming up. Yeah come on you're slipping there. 	
Rob	Why don't I know that?	
tony	Yeah you should be there. It's a really good sport, it's a different sport and I think one of the things that might attract people there are different Paralympic sports that you don't get in the Olympics and sort of goalball, boccia are two of them, and wheelchair rugby which we've talked about before which I think will be really... 	
rob	Which is actually murderball. 	
tony	Murderball. I mean I think there's going to be... 	
rob	How can you not be attracted...	
tony 	... oh you're going to love it.	
rob	... to watching a game of murderball.	
tony	There's going to be crash, bang, wallop, you know it will be good. I mean the wheelchair basketball's going to be the... to me I think I said the other week last time I think will be the really hot, hot ticket to get and since we last spoke we've had the European championships out in Israel, an immense team at long last won gold and the women got a bronze. So that sets it up nicely. But there's going to be some tremendous sports to go and watch at the Olympic Park and at the venues and there's going to be some great sports to look across on the TV, and of course listen to on radio on 5Live. 	
rob	And just remind me what boccia is again?	
tony	Boccia I think the easiest way to describe it is like something that's a bit like boules, the French version of boules. 	
rob	Oh yes okay. We're quite good at that aren't we? 	
tony	We are good. We've done very well over the years, we've got some good gold medals. So that's a game for athletes with sort of more severe Cerebral Palsy but we've got some really good guys at boccia. So we would be hoping for medals in that. 	
liz	So if we wanted to get a fix of our Paralympic sports there are a number of events coming up in the next few months yeah?	
tony	Absolutely. We're sort of starting to come to the more to the end of the sporting calendar whether it's Olympics or Paralympics this year, and as I said, we've just had basketball and we've just had some cycling out in Copenhagen, the British team did quite well there. But coming up in the next sort of month to five week's we've got the European Wheelchair Rugby Championships in Switzerland. And also we've got European goalball, and volleyball which is a good sport; it's sitting volleyball both mens and women's teams and that's taking place in Rotterdam. So we've got that. And there's a bit of table tennis, ping pong to you guys out there going back a bit, but that will be good. So I think this is the next two months is the real final marker for athletes in those squads to really cement places, prove that they are good enough to compete, we still don't quite know if the women's sitting volleyball team will be good enough, and that's going to be one of the big questions to come out of Rotterdam because quite a few of these sports are relatively new to the British team, so that's why... Whereas other countries like, you know, across Europe have been playing them a long while, certain sports like we were just talking about, volleyball and goalball the British teams are relatively new so they've got to mark their position and prove that they're good enough to compete at 2012.	
liz	Sitting volleyball, Tony, is that exciting though?	
tony	Sitting volleyball's going to be a real new sport to a lot of people over here. I mean it sort of emerged in the Netherlands in the 1950s and '60s and was very popular across there. From a British point of view it's quite new to us. And the reason why it's quite new I honestly believe is that there's a lot of amputees taking part, a lot of people who have been injured in the services and various instances like that. And in the British team there's a good athlete called Martine Wright who lost both her legs in the London bombings a few years ago, so she's one of the sort of high profile women players. But they've also got quite a few of the guys who have been in the armed services. So that's where it's just starting to come through.
	
rob	Is this going to be in Horseguard's Parade where they volleyball's taking place?	
Tony	No it's going to be in the Excel Centre. 	
Rob	In the Excel.	
tony 	So it's going to be indoors. It's going to be the Excel Centre, indoors arena and a team of six, two teams of six. You've got matches are played on the best of five sets and the first to get to 25 points. So I think the volleyball will be exciting, it's quite new, both the mens and women's teams I don't think will medal because the reasons I've just mentioned. And indeed one of the big things coming up at the European Championships in sitting volleyball in Rotterdam is that the British women have got to prove to the British Paralympic Association who make the final decision, that they are competitive enough to be given a place at the 2012 games.	
liz	And sitting volleyball what do they sit on?	
tony	Well basically you've got on an indoor court at a sports arena and you have to have either part of your buttock or your shoulder on the floor when you are playing volleyball. 	
liz	People write these rules, don’t they?	
tony	I  know you've got to check it otherwise if you're seen to be lifting it's illegal and basically it says official the buttocks and shoulders must be in contact with the court when playing the ball. So obviously you've got two or three opportunities to get like in able-bodied volleyball... 	
rob	But that's not really sitting is it, that's kind of...	
tony	It's perching I would say.	
rob	... on the floor volleyball.	
liz	It's quite a job for a ref though isn't it?	
rob	"I saw a buttock lift."	
liz	Excuse me!	
tony	I think it'll be different. They've been promoting it a lot, but we'll see. I think there's a lot to go I think there's an awful lot we've talked about earlier on in terms of educating the public, explain things. 	
liz	Tony, thank you for joining us again.	
rob	Thank you, Tony.	
tony	That's a pleasure any time. 	
rob	[Jingle:
Rob:	It's alphabet soup time, Liz, we're on Twitter at BBC 	Ouch.
Liz:	Our blog is at bbc.co.uk/ouch
Rob:	Find us on Facebook at Ouchbbc
Liz:	Email us at ouch@bbc.co.uk
Rob:	And we're on 97 to 99 FM 
Liz:	No we're not that's Radio 1.]
	
liz	Bobby Baker is with us, woman and artist.	
bobby	Yes I am. I'm a woman. You see sometimes people expect to see a man and I have to explain. 	
liz	Ah ha that's why you put it there. 	
rob	So woman we've got you in because you're about to start a new show and you've also...	
bobby	I'm a 60 year old woman.	
rob	60 year old woman.	
bobby	Yeah I'm quite proud of that.	
rob	You've just won the Mind Book of the Year Award for diary drawings, mental illness and me. 	
bobby	Yeah.	
rob	So congratulations for that, Bobby. So tell us about this book which is... 	
bobby	I couldn't be more pleased.	
rob	... 158 drawings from the mid '90s to 2008 charting your mental and physical health difficulties.	
bobby	Yeah. I started at a day centre, I had to kind of admit that things weren't quite right in about '96 and I found this local day centre so I thought I'd go there for three weeks and I trained as a painter I'm better known as a performance artist. And so I set myself a little project to do three weeks of drawings in this art room that was there thinking that's what it would take to sort me out, but it turned into 11 years - 711 drawings. But after a while it became so laborious that when I went to the day centre all I did was the drawing that actually I did one a week most of the time. 	
rob	You said that in your view you were distressed beyond anything I imagined it possible for a human being to be and remain alive, which is...	
bobby	Yes.	
rob	... very strong. And your diagnosis was Borderline Personality Disorder, so what is that? Or what do you think you had and how did you move past it?	
bobby 	Well the words that are attached to any sort of... I just so object fundamentally to saying that someone's personality is disordered. And actually it's a term that stems from the 1980s. And essentially it's about trying to categorise a group of people who have a range of symptoms. So it's useful to be acknowledged that you've got something that's really bad wrong with you. But I had a really good relationship with my psychiatrist and I told, you know, I said, "I beg your pardon, speak for yourself." I was like, "How dare you?" But essentially that will change ultimately, the labels change and move on don't they - political correctness and whatever. But actually I did get lots of other diagnosis - mood disorder and all sorts of things. 	
liz	Is Borderline Personality Disorder it's a bit like you know when you go and you've got a bad stomach and they say you've got irritable bowel, do you know what I mean it's the coverall when they don't sort of know and have a...	
bobby 	Well I mean actually technically I got this treatment called Dialectical Behaviour Therapy which again I mean what a lot of words. The words really drove me mad - Emotional Dysregulation - I can only say it in an American accent. But when you get to understand them I'm quite critical of things so I got quite kind of, you know, argumentative about it and then I really understand it and I find it really interesting. But the words themselves can be a barrier in everything. But yeah it was a very bad time.	
liz	If the words are a barrier, is that why you took to using pictures? 	
bobby	Well I think I was lucky that... I'd gone to St. Martin's you see for four years and really never knew what I was doing there. This was '68 to '72 and I had to justify my time so I did lots of drawing and painting. And then had become a performance artist. So when I went I thought well I've always wanted to paint so I think it became a way, I decided to do these water colour paintings of trying to express what was going on for me. I never thought I'd show them to anyone truthfully. And because they became so shocking so quickly I hid them. 	
rob	Where did you hide them? 	
bobby	In a bag at home. My children were teenagers and my husband was there. It turns out my daughter actually used to sneak looks at them. She did it to reassure herself that I was okay which was very moving when I look back on it.	
rob	Well we've got the book here in front of us and it is absolutely fantastic and a really beautiful piece of work and I just want you to tell me a little bit more about a couple of the drawings I've got here. This is for day 165 and this one seems to draw a lot of comment, it's your psychiatrist portrayed as a witch. 	
bobby	Well it's actually a psychotherapist.	
rob	What was going on here? Oh psychotherapist, okay.	
bobby	Well there's lot of them you see, there's the therapist, the psychiatrist and psychologist. No she was a very nice women. 	
rob	Can you describe the cartoon?	
bobby	Well she's a...	
rob	Or the drawing.	
bobby	... witchy woman with a pointy tongue and these big claws and big pointy shoes. 	
rob	Is that a cleaver or a dagger?	
bobby	Yes she's got a cleaver and she's got green and red claws.	
rob	And what was going through your mind at the time when you drew that?	
bobby	Well I was brought up to be polite you know and I liked her and she was really trying to help, but it actually got to the point where it wasn't helping so I used to get quite irritable and then I got home and I just thought I'd do a drawing of her, and just let it express my anger or frustration. And the trouble is that people who are working with people who have problems are generally, you know not all of them, but very well intentioned but they find it hard to sort of hear the 'we have thoughts too'. And actually you quite care for them it's a sort of relationship, it's not just the expert and the hopeless person. So anyway it's to show... it's also quite a funny drawing isn't it? 	
rob	And another quite poignant one I think which I liked is day 320 which is yoga for weepers. 	
bobby	Yes. 	
rob	And Ken Arnold of the Welcome Trust he says that there's so much sorrow here that it almost makes us laugh. Can you describe what we're looking at here in this drawing?	
bobby	Well I used to like yoga very much and it's always something when you go and do a bit of yoga you're given all this advice about relaxation. And the trouble is if you're lying on the floor and you're crying, because I did cry a huge amount in the early days, that the tears collect in your ears and it's quite uncomfortable so I had to stop doing it. And it's sort of me bent back double doing perfect yoga with tears shooting out of my head.	
rob	Kind of Niagara of tears.	
bobby	I ended up doing so many paintings about weeping that I was weeping and it covered the whole world. I felt like that actually I felt so sad.	
liz	Were the pictures therapy then? 	
bobby	Oh that's a big issue - I don't know. I think there were...	
liz	Art and therapy.	
bobby	... good for me. Well that's a whole...	
liz	Come on. 	
bobby	Well I just think that's one of those kind of camp things isn't it? I'm an artist and I found them therapeutic for me but they're not art therapy that's a very specific discipline which I respect. But I did them as an artist for me. 	
liz	I think when you were talking about particularly the drawing of the psychotherapist I was thinking by that time in the relationship was the drawing more helpful than your meetings with that person?	
bobby	It was.	
liz	So in that sense...	
bobby	But essentially I was moving on from that relationship and to another situation. All of it, in the end, helped me get better but I was moving on from that stage. So yes that drawing was a bit of a turning point. 	
liz	And you have a favourite drawing in there?	
bobby	Probably the last one which is called 'The Daily Stream of Consciousness' because I think it's where I am quite often these days it's about daily life and just doing ordinary things and wandering around in parks and staring at people and having... I sort of sense, you know, a stream of consciousness of just ideas and thoughts running through your brain without being troubling.
	
liz	And that's the stream through your face there and then we've got fields on your shoulders.	
bobby	Yes. And dogs and...	
rob	You've turned drawings of a head into a Victorian landscaped garden.	
bobby	Yes of course.	
rob	Capability Brown.	
bobby	I've got a canoe and a cabin cruiser and a rowing boat in my brain - that sums me up. 	
liz	Nice. Now you've had other health problems during your life yeah?	
bobby	Well yeah actually over the years. But what happened when... I think it does happen if you've got one big diagnosis like a mental illness, they're now realising that you yourself perhaps don't look after yourself but essentially other people assume that every manifestation of any problem is emotional. So doctors used to say, "But how are you feeling?" When I said I felt really ill, all my legs were hurting and they'd say, "Yeah but how do you feel?" And so you'd say...	
rob	"I've think I'd be quite clear."	
bobby	"I think I feel pretty bad." "Well you're working too hard" you know. 	
rob	Are consultations really that trite? It sounds just awful.	
bobby	Well it happened quite a lot and I have a very good GP. But now I've got really bad arthritis in my knees, osteoarthritis, I'm very fortunate I got one total replacement. But also I developed...	
rob	Just one?	
bobby	Oh so far. 	
rob	Oh I thought it would be maybe a 'buy one get one free' policy on knees.	
bobby	No it's really mean. But I've also developed breast cancer that wasn't diagnosed for quite a while because I kept on... I was like... I passed out getting the milk in and I was told I was a bit over tired, but any way they did discover it so I went through all of that. 	
liz	In the book you say, "I got cancer during this time, I just don't see why describing cancer as a battlefield is helpful. It puts rather a burden on sick people, and there's no medical evidence about being positive about a horrible illness and all that goes with it improves one's chances of survival." Wow that's a brave thing to say. And so accurate I would feel.	
bobby	Well I had a wonderful consultant and of course, you know, you always feel guilty when you get ill. I mean people just do. You think what could I have done to avoid it? And he said there is no evidence. And it was a blessing because it takes the pressure off you. And you just notice everywhere they won or lost their battle with cancer or they won or lost their battle and you think oh thanks, you know, it's like I have to fight...	
rob	It's like a load of football results.	
bobby	Yes. And if I actually get really ill I've lost. I so object to it. 	
rob	Well you put in a poor 90 minutes on the operating table today, Bobby.	
bobby	Oh you're hopeless.	
liz	You've been a bit of a contentious objector on this because it's not ((0:36:44.2?))	
rob	But let's talk about your new show, it's called Mad Gyms and Kitchens and the literature says it's all about how to get better at feeling better. I quite like that. Tell us more. 	
bobby	Well that's the other part of the package apart from being diagn--... you know told that you're sort of whatever and you think I'm just nutty and sad. But you get a rather sort of po-faced. When I had the cancer the good thing was that they described all the side effects, they were very respectful, I thought the treatment was extraordinary and the people who worked in it. And it made me realise that actually I could take responsibility for myself. And that there's all this advice that you get about feeling better and making your life better. And what's annoying is that it's always lists and it always says, you know, 'Top Tips' and it's all a little bit patronising, you know. So I decided to make a show about it - gyms and kitchens and all, you know, the exercise and nutrition and it's become much more... I wanted to make a show that was designed to reach parts that other shows wouldn't reach. So I've been working with my son who's an artist who's made this extraordinary flight case so we can take it and they reveal these... it's a travelling demonstration kit about how life makes me feel cheerful really. And more.  	
liz	And you're looking great. Are you feeling well at the moment? 	
bobby	I am yeah. 	
rob	Are you a psychiatrist or a GP?	
liz	Well I was going to say what makes... then I want your secret what makes you feel better then?	
bobby	Well somebody was asking me this the other day and I remember I've got a very expressive face and I was sort of walking around the road and a cabbie, a London cabbie, lent out the window one day and he said, "Lighten up darling it's not the end of the world." 	
rob	Talked about phrase really, it is the end of the world if you're in Japan there's been an apocalyptic themed show this one hasn't it?	
liz	Yeah.	
bobby	Well it's I mean in a sense everything's really, really hard and the world is awful, and I think it's finding sort of enjoyable things in daily life. I really believe in how you live in your daily life and how you are with your friends and family can make life really much more enjoyable. So it's about that and laughing actually. And laughing which has been my main survival method. 	
liz	Well we're very happy to have you on the podcast, it's been fantastic. Where's the best place for people to find out more about you, your work and of course the show? 	
bobby	Well our website, my company is called Daily Life Limited. And we are at www.bobbybakersdailylife.com. And the show Mad Gyms and Kitchens is launching in Bath on the 14 - around the time of World Mental Health Day - 14 October. And then we'll be touring from February all round the country - Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle and come back to the Southeast and the Southwest.	
Liz	Can't wait to see it.	
rob	Absolutely thanks for coming in.	
liz	Thank you so much for joining us. 	
bobby	Thank you.
[Jingle: 
Liz:	Does anyone listen to the radio anymore? 
Rob:	I don't think so. I reckon podcasting is where it's at.
Liz:	Well it's a good job we're not on the radio then isn't 	it?
Rob:	Indeed it is, thank heavens for small mercies.
Liz:	Find us at bbc.co.uk/podcast click entertainment and 	scroll down to find us. We're also on iTunes.
Rob:	And Ouch FM for the best music mix.
Liz:	What? 	
rob	Nicky Clark joins us now from Shrewsbury. Hello Nicky.	
nicky	Hello there.	
liz	Now you're a disability campaigner, you're got two children on the autistic spectrum. 'Don't Play Me, Pay Me' was one of your campaigns which rallied against actors cripping up as disabled people. How did that come about Nicky? 	
nicky	Mainly because, Liz, I mean I went to drama school and it was very clear to me at drama school that, you know, you had to find the character and use performance and the find the truth in the character and I just always found portrayals of disability by non disabled actors embarrassing. And when Liz had got the part in Dustbin Baby for the BBC, I think she was the first person in the UK with Asperger's Syndrome to portray a character with the same condition. Although it was never mentioned directly in the script this was the character. So they looked and they contacted the National Autistic Society and Liz went along for an audition and she got it. 	
liz	And that's a brilliant example isn't it of that happening because that's quite rare. Now, Nicky, we've got you with us today to do the news.	
rob	In a fit of, can I call it vanity, I think I will it's a piece, one of your news stories is one that you wrote yourself. 	
nicky	I know.	
rob	And it's actually about Ricky Gervais and his...	
Nicky	Ego, a go go!	
rob	... and his services for disability which I take it you rather approve of. So can you tell us a little bit about that?	
nicky	I do. I think along with authentic casting... it's around the idea of authentic casting; Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant have constantly in all of their programming and in all of the subject matter they deal with issues to do with bigoted attitudes. And they use comedy to talk about every issue in life. But what I feel that they do is that they don't laugh at the person with the disability or if it's race or anything else what they do is that they highlight the bigoted attitude. And that's the where the laser of their comedy hits.	
liz	So you think he gets it right as opposed to a lot of other comedians?	
nicky	I do. I think in their writing they definitely do. I mean I think they both definitely do. 	
liz	In The Office they had was it Francesca?	
rob	Francesca Martinez was in...	
liz	I've done that classic...	
rob	Francesca Martinez was in Extras didn't we, where there was Julie Fernandez... 	
liz	Julie Fernandez.	
rob	Julie Fernandez in The Office.	
nicky	Julie Fernandez in The Office.	
rob	And they've now got Warwick Davis and Kiruna.	
liz	Of course our very own Kiruna Stamell. 	
rob	And the new Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant sitcom so I mean 'Don't Play Me, Pay Me' you'd like to think that Gervais and Merchant listen to that wouldn't you? 	
nicky	Yes. Me? 	
rob	Yeah it's your campaign...	
liz	Yeah absolutely.	
rob	... Nicky not mine. 	
nicky	Yeah, no I mean I think the thing is it's something. I mean it was ten years ago and I just I think everybody's looked for that particular alchemy of the comedy that they create, you know, it was huge, it was massive, it was worldwide. And programme makers now are looking to recreate that alchemy with either mockumentary styles of other forms of comedy. And I think the point of my piece was the one thing I wish they had lifted, above all other things, was the idea of authentic casting. I mean every member of The Office, every cast member of The Office was completely identifiable as being capable of working in an office, believable situations. And I suppose for me it was ten years ago and we still don't routinely see disabled performers on TV. 	
liz	And yet interestingly Ricky has been, you know, people have criticised him for the way that he's approached disability as well, you know, that he's used a lot of disability and...	
rob	I think it's the comedy of pain that it...	
liz	That's absolutely squirming isn't it?	
rob	... tortuous to watch. 	
liz	Okay. Your next news story 'People With Autism Don't Believe in God' Nicky is this true? 	
nicky	A delightful piece from The Mail. Particularly the headline, I think the headline is really telling inasmuch as it says, "Is atheism linked to autism controversial study points to a relationship between the two. So for me as a reader the first thing you think is okay so being an atheist means that you'll either become autistic or will have children with autism, so I'd better believe in God; is the first thing I lifted, I could be completely wrong obviously.	
rob	No it makes perfect sense. 	
nicky	It goes on to use great, you know, the wonderful thing of statistics which again always a fact. And so I mean I have issues with it for a couple of reasons, obviously the way that it's phrased and couched. I think that also, you know, I've spoken to many people on the autistic spectrum and there is of course a huge variance, you will have deeply convicted and convinced religious people. And you will also have people who are atheists. 	
liz	I don't quite get it really. So why would people with autism not believe in God, why is there that cold logic?	
rob	Is this because...	
nicky	Exactly. 	
rob	... supposedly people who have autism are super logical and empirical and therefore making that link...	
liz	Oh okay.	
rob	... it's not really possible. Is that what they're trying to imply?	
nicky	I think so. I think that's what they've sort of tried to imply and, you know, also the idea again that this is another link. I mean the days that go by and I hear it's watching too much television, it's because I've got fillings in my teeth. It's always women. And you just wonder when they will stop. I know it's hugely financially beneficial for a psychologist, for example, to come out with a theory and a new idea for the cause but we don't know the cause. All we know is that it's a manifestation, an organic dysfunction of the brain. And I think if we move beyond looking for a cause and a reason and just build towards acceptance in the same way with treatment, you know, this again is another issue for me.	
rob	The thing is it's potentially quite a dangerous story as well I think it's okay in a secular nation like ours but this story could do so much damage in the States couldn't it? 	
nicky	Totally. And as I say there's a huge variance. I mean some people that I speak to with autism absolutely embrace religion because there are a clear set of rules for them to follow, you know. And I just wish, I mean obviously for me I'm an atheist so I've caused my children to have autism. There we are. 	
liz	I just love this scrambling around for another reason.	
rob	It is isn't it? 	
liz	And using faith is brilliant. But I like what you said then that actually, you know, the whole logic that some people with autism maybe want scientific, empirical proof that there's a God, but for others the structure and the ritual of religion whatever religion it is, you know is good for people with autism and attracts people with autism to faith and different faiths as well. So as ever it kind of goes both ways by the sounds of it yeah?	
nicky	Yeah absolutely. And that there is a massive group of people, it's just people you're going to find variance in all groups of people and I think again it's just like this pinpointing of a condition, a popular condition for reporting. And reporting ignorantly, in my view.	
rob	Yeah but how would you feel if your kids came home one day and said, "Mum, I've found God." 	
nicky	I'd be fine with it. I mean I think the thing is whether you're an atheist or whether you're religious I think if whatever your belief system is or whatever your belief system has become. I think it's necessary for you. And I think if it does no harm then it can only be good really, which is really obvious. Sorry. I think you were looking for something slightly more intelligent there. [speaking in a little girl voice] "I like is because it's good." 	
rob	Well thanks so much, Nicky. Sorry to leave it on that intellectual low point but we have to move on. You can follow Nicky on Twitter@MrsNickyClarke and we'll link her internet stuff on the blog. I'm pausing as much as you are now, Nicky, you've infected me. 	
nicky	I know I'm sorry.	
liz	Nicky, thanks so much for joining us it's been great. 	
nicky	It's okay, my pleasure. 
[Jingle: 
Rob:	In Touch, Does He Take Sugar, From the Edge, One 	in Four, See Here.
Liz:	What're you doing?
Rob:	I'm listing all disability shows that have been on the BBC. Vision On, Over the Edge.
Liz:	Why are you doing that?
Rob:	Because it just helps listeners understand where we sit 	in the rich history of disability output from this fine 	corporation.
Liz:	This is leading up to - but we're not on the radio, 	we're just a podcast isn't it?
Rob:	No! But you would have thought there were enough 	beep BBC radio stations they could put us on 	somewhere.
Liz: 	Rob, stop it.]
	
Liz	On the line from Sheffield, we have Kayla Kavanagh. Hello Kayla.	
Kayla	Good morning, how are you?	
liz	Very good, very good.	
rob	So you're a singer and the second person on today's show who's had a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder.	
kayla	Yes so I believe.	
rob	Which means we never have to cover it again. 	
kayla	No that's it, you can all go home.	
rob	That box is comprehensively ticked. 	
kayla	Excellent.	
liz	Well we had Bobby Baker, we interviewed her and she wasn't that big a fan of the Borderline Personality, you quite like it don't you?	
kayla	Yeah well it's funny because the diagnosis itself kind of splits people, ironically splitting is part of the whole diagnosis, but it really the label itself splits people down the middle it's a love/hate thing. People really either love the label like the fact that they've got sort of something to explain their feelings and behaviours and emotions, and other people just really dislike the actual wording of Personality Disorder and choose not to use it which I think is absolutely fine, whichever you choose because everybody's individual and that's the whole thing about PD is each person is so unique, so their own take on the label will be completely individual as well.	
liz	I love it.	
rob	You believe it helps you creatively then?	
kayla	I do personally yeah. For me it was something that actually helped me understand who I am because a lot of the thing to do with personality disorder is around issues with your own identity, not knowing who you are, emotionally being extremely up and down. And those are things that really have been such a huge part of my life since I was maybe 10 or 11. And just struggling through dealing with all these emotional things that I didn't get, finally having a diagnosis actually gave me a way to begin to learn how to recover and to find other people who experience similar symptoms and, you know, to create a network of support and work with organisations who support people with Personality Disorders as well. So to me it's been something that's been extremely liberating and yeah I do find the diagnosis, the label, helpful definitely.	
liz	So tell us about your music.	
kayla	Oh now then. I've been playing lots of instruments since I was a little girl. I'm originally from Belfast. 	
liz	Can we just say here, it says nine instruments, don't just say some, nine is this true?	
kayla	Bless you, thank you. Yeah I kind of get bored easily so when I get bored I pick up a new instrument as you do. And so yeah I play nine and I do them all myself on stage. So I work with my partner Nigel Pease and he does my sound and technical management of all the shows. So what I do is link all the instruments up so you've got like keyboard, guitar, violin, flute, Eigenharp which is a big new instrument and I live loop them on stage so I play them, record them and make like an accompaniment and sing over the top, and do that kind of thing. So that all started when I was a little girl. And that creative thing that's been what my life has been all about. And with Personality Disorder as well most people with PD diagnosis are very creative whether it's in art or literature or music or some way of expressing yourself creatively. So it's been a massive tool for recovery as well.   	
rob	Has there been any of these instruments or any instrument that you've picked up and had to abandon because it was just too hard or can you turn your hand to anything? 	
kayla	Oh well I must say the newest instrument that I'm playing I nearly put away in the box again. It's called an Eigenharp and it's massive. It's taller than me and it's got 132 keys. And basically it's like an all-in-one looper drum machines, soloing thing and you can watch, I've got loads of clips on it, if you go to YouTube and put in Kayla Kavanagh Eigenharp you can see it in action. But it is so difficult because it's not like any other instrument, there's no book that you can pick up and learn how to play it. So it's such a new instrument there's only about ten of them in the UK. So it's really, really hard. And I must admit I spent a good six months and it sat in its box, and I took it out one day, tried to play it, cried, put it back again and wouldn't look at it for a few months. And then Nigel said, "Look come would you catch yourself here and actually just pick it up and learn it" and I did. And then it was all fine, so it's all good. 	
liz	Well we'll link to those clips from our blog.	
kayla	Oh lovely!	
liz	But now it's time for our quick fire questions. Are you ready Kayla?	
kayla	Go on. 	
liz	These are so our audience can get a sense of who you are, okay?	
rob	And no pausing, no hesitating, you've got to answer this immediately.	
kayla	Okay.	
Liz	Sandwich or Panini? 	
kayla	Oh Panini.	
rob	Summer evenings outside or winter evenings by the fire?	
kayla	Summer evenings outside definitely.	
liz	Boat or plane?	
kayla	Oh good question - boat. 	
rob	If the eurozone collapses I will...?	
kayla	Move back to Ireland. 	
liz	If all my instruments were caught up in a house fire I would rush back in and save...?	
kayla	The Eigenharp.	
liz	Of course.	
rob	Pop or classical?	
kayla	Pop.	
liz	Complex or straightforward?	
kayla	Complex.	
rob	Basics or finest?	
kayla	Finest.	
liz	If I were to emigrate I'd move to...?	
kayla	Iceland.	
rob	People who like Kayla Kavanagh also like...?	
kayla	Music! 	
liz	What kind, what style is your kind of music?	
kayla 	It's electronic pop rock I think.	
liz	Okay.	
rob	And what is it with you and bankrupt countries, you move want to move back to Ireland if the eurozone collapses and then emigrate to Iceland.	
liz	Are you going on holiday to Greece by any chance?	
kayla	I know. Do you know I believe in standing up with the hard times so if they're going to soldier on through I'll soldier through with them, that's the plan. 	
liz	And if people want to find out more about you, Kayla, how can they do that?	
kayla	If they go to www.kaylakavangh.com or if you just google Kayla Kavanagh then you'll find me all over the internet and on YouTube and anywhere you search, you'll find me and it's spelt with Ks.	
rob	And this is Kayla K-A-Y-L-A?	
kAYLA	That's the one and Kavanagh also with a K a well.	
Rob	Also with a K. So hold it right there, we're going to roll the credits and we'll be back with you, Kayla, straight afterwards so you can introduce your track.	
Kayla	Lovely. 	
rob	So roll on Liz.	
liz	That's the end of the show. Thank you to the team; Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey and studio manager, Nasser Pervez, the producer was Damon Rose. Podcast 78 our next one will be with you in early November.	
Rob	Goodbye and cue Kayla.	
kayla	This track that you're going to hear is one from my album that I released last year. The album's called 'Stranger Than Fiction' recorded by Nigel Pease at Silver Sound and this track is the second track from the album called Colour Me In. 
[Playing music]