Ouch Podcast #76 – September 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr 

mat	Thanks for downloading the show people, it's our 76th edition. Yes another double dose of disability downloadable to your mp3 player of choice. I'm Mat Fraser and beside me in the studio is the one and only Liz Carr. She's going to be telling you what's on our specials board for this hour long September show. 	
liz	It's less than a year to go until the London 2012 Paralympics so Mat and I are going to put our own special spin on that in just a moment. Wheelchair using model Shannon Murray delves into this month's disability news and later we meet blind adventurer Mark Pollock currently facing his biggest challenge yet after a freak accident means he's now a wheelchair user.	
mat	Ouch!	
liz	As they say. 	
mat	Our Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable game is back again this month with yet another dubious twist. And to wrap up there's music from Genie Cosmas who'll be popping in later for a chat. 	
liz	For pictures, links, backstage gossip and everything you could possibly ever need to know about the show go to our blog bbc.co.uk/ouch.
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr.]	
mat	It's so good to be back with you Liz. 	
liz	Great to have you back. 	
mat	I love our little reunions. 	
liz	Haven't seen you for a while, are you well?	
mat	Very well, thank you very much. You'll notice that I'm hideously tanned. 	
liz	I know you've not been in the UK over the summer then?	
mat	No I have been in New York again and the highlight of which was I suppose a gay nude wedding on Fire Island because they recently made gay marriage legal in New York state and my friends, Tigger and Scott, already together for ten years, decided to make it official, and it was a beautiful ceremony and there was lots of love, and it was a gay paradise of wonderbar. 	
liz	I love it. You do live such an ordinary life, really connecting out there to the majority of our listeners aren't we? "Oh yes Fire Island naked wedding" of course me too.	
mat	I'll have you know there were plenty of crips there. Why are you looking so well? 	
liz	Probably because I'm not working. Not working anymore. 	
mat	Free at last! 	
liz	Free at last. Found sitting in an office, Mat, what with my impairments not good, not good for the joints, not good for the body or the soul. Yeah very tired. 	
mat	Invisible shackles that you seem bound by have been snapped and you're free now. You seem lighter.	
liz	I'm free. I'm not just going to sit at home doing nothing for a while. I'm getting out there doing things, meeting people and something to look forward to next year, Mat. 	
mat	What? 	
liz	You know I'm an unlikely sports person but I do actually have tickets for the Olympics. 	
mat	Really?	
liz	Yes I do. 	
mat	How did you get tickets for the Olympics when so many other people couldn't?	
liz	That's the thing. I've been asking around and quite a lot of disabled people have got tickets for the ordinary, the normal Olympics, it's true right. So I just popped them in there, I had to book for my parents because my parents can't do this computer malarkey, so they were like, "Oh just book for us, anything athletics. We used to like a run, Peter, didn't we?" That was my parents yeah. "Oh I've got pumps I might wear them" that's what they were like. So I booked them for some stuff. They got their athletic tickets which was great. I put myself down plus companion for a joke for the table tennis and Julie got tickets. 	
mat	Oh my word. I don't think I can bear the excitement, Liz. 	
liz	I know. But now the Paralympic tickets of course are on sale, are you going to be partaking in... ?	
mat	In ticket buying? 	
liz	Yeah. 	
mat	I tell you I would like to see the blind judo. 	
liz	Really?	
mat	Yeah. You know me I love a bit of a scrap. 	
liz	I'm sure you'll get that, I'm sure you will. That's quite something.	
mat	And is there... do they have synchronised swimming in the Paralympics? 	
liz	I don't know. 	
mat	Because if they did I would want tickets for that. 	
liz	Well you're going to fine. Tickets for Paralympics... 	
mat	Well hold on who would know about that?	
liz	We might have an expert we can call upon. Who might that be? Might that be Tony Garrett, yes the disability sport guru from the BBC. Tony?	
tony	Good morning to you guys, yes I'm here. 	
mat	Hi. 	
liz	Good morning. 	
mat	Tony, the tickets go on sale on the 9th of September.	
tony	Tickets are on sale for the Paralympics until the end of the September. It's going to be very interested people have got to buy them for a change as opposed to them being given away.	
mat	What you mean people have got to pay to watch a load of disabled people...?	
tony	Yeah it's a bit tough but, you know, the good news is it's not top dollar there's some pretty good price tickets. So you can take a family and for £10 to £15 you can have a day pass at the Olympic Park.	
liz	So you probably will get a chance of actually seeing something then and actually getting tickets. 	
tony	Well this is it. I think what's going to be interesting is that obviously a lot of people haven't got tickets for the Olympics. And like yourselves I – whether there was not such a big demand for wheelchair spaces I have got some Olympic tickets as well so we'd better keep a bit quiet about that. 	
mat	But Tony do you think that the Paralympics have got - I don't know how to put it - cool enough for people who previously might not have been interested or taken it seriously to want tickets for the Paras given that they can't now get tickets for the main Olympics?	
tony	Yeah it's going to be really interesting to see what the reaction is because there is a sort of bit of conversation and banter that well we couldn't get to the Olympics but do you know what we'll take the next one, the Paralympics because it gives us chance to get into the Olympic Park and see all the venues. So there could be quite a take up on that angle. And hey they might come across some weird sports that they've never seen before. 	
mat	Absolutely. 	
liz	And what... we love weird sp--... we love weird things on the podcast here Tony, so what do you reckon, what are the weirdest ones to watch out for? 	
tony	Well you're not going to get your synchronised swimming?	
liz	Oh man. 	
tony	Sorry about that. 	
mat	How about unsynchronised swimming?	
tony	But there is swimming. I mean lots of the big sports - swimming, athletics. You've got goalball for visually impaired guys; you've got Boccia which is a unique Paralympic sport. 	
mat	We love Boccia.	
tony	Yeah the hottest tickets will be the wheelchair basketball.	
mat	Of course it will. That famous blood sport. 	
liz	What about the racing, you know, the athletics, for example, in the regular Olympics were the hot tickets, was that the same in the Paralympics? 	
tony	Yeah. I think athletics will be. We've obviously got... I mean there's a lot of interest... good old Oscar Pistorius is in town this week and everybody's going bonkers about that.	
mat	I suppose he's the first superstar.	
tony	We have to be careful that doesn't deflect from the British athletes because there's a number of the British athletes get a little bit cheesed off that Oscar's taken centre stage, shall we say. 	
mat	Well you know if you look at the regular Olympics Mr Bolt seems to be the only runner in the world at the moment. I mean it's just about the superstar status of some athletes isn't it?	
tony	Yeah. It certainly is... 	
liz	Oscar's been in the news a lot because he's been competing in non disability sport. He's been in the main sports events, not just the Paralympics and stuff like that. What do you think about that? Should our sports people from the Paralympics should they be crossing over into the Olympics, is that fair?	
mat	Does it downgrade the Paralympics? What's your opinion?	
tony	Yeah I mean this the debate that's rumbling as we speak and will continue along with... I think one of the great things about the Paralympics not everybody likes the Paralympics why do we want to go and watch it? But if you're a sports person it's great. There's lots of debates, classification, you know cheating, drugs. I like those debates because that actually makes Paralympic sport healthy and it makes it stands on its own and be grown up. Should athletes cross over? If you're good enough, you know, I don't have a problem if you're good at your sport and you've got the ability to do both then why not. One of my questions I would ask is that there are a few athletes out there with minimal disabilities, they're missing a finger or two, or they've got some problems with their ankle joints and that's okay, they're classified accordingly. But to me in the spirit of the Paralympics is that just questioning and murk in the waters. And that seems to be more and more coming into the plot which I have a slight problem with. But they've got minimal disabilities which means that they can be a swimmer and a cyclist at both the Olympics and Paralympics should they be at only one event. That would be my question. 	
mat	Well I guess by the time both Lympics, the O and the Para, have played out this year we'll get a better handle on it and decisions will be made for the following Olympics probably. Have you got any top tips for winners?	
tony	Top tips. Well I would say I mean we've got Natalie de Toit the South African that competes in both, she's going to be a big awesome name. Top guys like David Weir who is the wheelchair icon racer from London who could deliver two/three/four gold medals. You've got Ellie Simmonds in the swimming and people like that. The one that I think the public will love when they start watching it is wheelchair rugby, also known as murderball. 	
liz	And Tony, Mat's worried about the main Olympics being a terrorist hit, are you worried, will you be there? 	
tony	I will be there. 	
liz	Absolutely. 	
tony	Anything could happen in this day and world. I think, you know, the Paralympics, you know I've been at a few of the events security has been tight, is it quite as tight as it for the Olympics - probably not. 	
mat	But let's face it is the threat as heavy for the Paralympics? 	
liz	Yeah but surely no... 	
mat	Probably not. 	
liz	Surely no terrorist is going to hit the Paralympics they'd be particularly cruel wouldn't they? 	
tony	Yeah it would be bizarre.	
mat	It's bad PR.	
tony	I think for sure LOCOG will ensure that the same standards apply right across the board in all the stuff including security. I think you'll be fine. 	
liz	Fantastic. Tony, thank you so much for illuminating us into what's going on I had no idea what sports to see. I feel a bit more informed and I... 	
tony	Yeah I was going to say there's going to be lots of great entertainment pick and choose what you fancy. I think some sports people will say, "That's not for me but athletics, swimming, a bit of tennis..."	
mat	I'm going to try and get tickets for murderball now that you've reminded me about that because I love a bit of... 	
tony	Murderball will be fun, the kids and the parents and I think you guys will find it interesting. 	
mat	Yeah. 	
liz	Brilliant. 	
mat	Thank you very much, Tony. 	
liz	Tony, thanks very much for your time. 	
tony	That's a pleasure guys, talk to you again. 	
mat	Hey Liz?	
liz	Yes.	
mat	Is there a case where a Paralympian might use their assistance dog in the race or the thing that they're doing for the Paralympics? 	
liz	You mean like dog racing? 	
mat	“Wilks and cockles and the dogs and off they go". No not like that. 	
liz	It's the guide dog express. Yeah. Well they've got to have something to do while their owners are running. 	
mat	Like why don't they have Boccia Fetch? 	
liz	Actually that would be... 	
mat	They throw it as far as they can and then their assistance dog brings it... So it's like One Man and His Dog, Boccia and Crufts all in one. 	
liz	You know you mentioned Boccia, my assumption is it's always a little bit, it's people with CP throwing beanbags. Really. And... 	
mat	Okay listen we are kind of taking the you know what, listeners, but listen if there is a Boccia player out there perhaps you'd just like to quickly email us and just give a succinct please description of actually what Boccia is. 	
liz	Not the full rules and regulations we won't read them, we just want a pithy comment on what Boccia is that's not about being beanbags thank you because we are ignorant and we plead ignorance.	
mat	Actually it would be you know what Crufts is like though, it would be a really good additional, mind you... 	
liz	[Whistling] I don't know what... "Come by, come by"	
mat	That was your personal assistant whistling on your behalf.	
liz	No I was just whistling for my personal assistant. 	
mat	So I've just remembered a hideous dog story that's impairment based can I tell you? 	
liz	Please do. 	
mat	Okay. So when I was staying... I was doing a play once and I was staying with the director and she had this really vicious dog. It wasn't the dog's fault, it was a Collie who lived in the City and you've got to give a Collie like eight hours run a day, they're sheep dogs, you know, they run around. So without that they get a bit frustrated. And Duncan had a little bit of an issue with faces and food. So if your face was too near his food he would bite you. And Eliza went away for a couple of days and said, "Will you look after Duncan, his food's over there it'll fine" and without thinking I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." So there I am and I've got a bowl of food in my hand and as I lean down because I've got very short arms business... 	
liz	You haven't got a reach. 	
mat	I've got no reach, I have to lean. I lean down to put... and my face meets his face way before the food gets to the floor and he's like top lip comes up [growling] like about to savage me. And I'm like, "Oh my..." and it was really difficult, I was kind of stuck and I was terrified of this dog because I'd heard that Collies can go for their owners and I believed all the gossip. Eventually I managed to like throw one of his dog treats out of the room, run out with it, then run back in and shut the door. 	
liz	Put the plate down. 	
mat	Really quickly put the plate down and then move to the side and then try with my foot open the door and hope that he would just run for the food instead of attacking me first.	
liz	And did he?	
mat	He did. But that was just like an impairment based dog story.	
liz	I'm so glad that you've mentioned this though because I've been cat sitting recently. 	
mat	Uh-oh! Same thing vicious cats?	
liz	Well yes and no but what's fascinating... so this cat belongs to another wheelchair user. And what I noted was amazing is that this cat makes herself accessible - it's brilliant. Now maybe pets just do this I don't know. So I can't reach a cat on the floor and I haven't got a huge lap so they're not that comfortable, but what she'd do is she'd go on the one place, you know, if we came in she'd go on the sofa and specifically onto the arm of the sofa which is right... 	
mat	Reachable. 	
liz	... within my reach.	
mat	Wow!	
liz	And that was amazing she would do that. And she'd do that before she went up say my PA or to Jo who were both standing and can reach her. And that was just lovely. But I'd quite love a pet and used to have them growing up and love pets, but one of my things is the whole feeding thing. Because with cats of course they're so fickle and they love the person that feeds them. 	
mat	That's right. 	
liz	And does their tray and makes... gets their basic needs met do you know what I mean?	
mat	Yeah. 	
liz	So I can do the stroking if they're in the right position but what about this thing when you know it's about putting their food down, as you say, there are issues I can't reach the floor.	
mat	Can you not invent some kind of slide system where you chop up the food on the table, scrap it over to the slide and it drops down the slide into the bowl. 	
liz	Like a food shoot. Because they don't like eating on tables and that's a bit grim anyway, you know what I mean? I could do it at top level once somebody's opened the can and got the fork and all of that. But you're right there must be... if anyone's listening has an idea because I was thinking of maybe a little pulley system to lower the plate down to the floor kind of thing. 	
mat	Yeah. You know what you said about the cat like accessing the stroking, it reminds me although cats and short people of stature are not the same, by any stretch of the imagination, I'm saying that officially on the BBC dwarf people and cats are not the same - I'm only joking, I'm only joking. 	
liz	No that's good. 	
mat	I was watching that Channel 4 programme Seven Dwarfs anyway there was this really... 	
liz	What's it about? Sorry. 	
mat	Well okay it's about seven people of short stature who are playing the seven dwarfs in a production of Snow White and it follows their... you know each episode centres on one individual blah, blah, blah - it was an interesting insight into the life of people who do that kind of job, I'm not saying anything about that. But the bit I thought was really fascinating was that one of the women has a 15 year old daughter average size so she towers above her own mother, and they'd been to a funeral and the kid needed mum comfort, and mum went, "Ah do you me to make you a drink?" She went, "Yeah." And then leaned right over the counter to the full depth of the counter where the mother couldn't reach picked up a bottle of what looked like orange squash and then put it at the front of the shelf so that her mum could reach it and make her a comforting drink. And I was like wow she's ac--... do you know what I mean she accessed her mum to then help her. And nobody mentioned it, it just came and went as a moment and it really touched me, I don't know it really did. It made me cry, Liz. 	
liz	That's really be--... and that's what, you know, assistance animals are like that aren't they?	
mat	That's what I say, it's the same thing as the cat sitting on the arm of the sofa. 	
liz	But I don't know about you I've not mates though, crip mates, who've got pets, they're not assistance animals they don't wear the little hi-vis and you have to put your working pet in, they're just regular pets but they, you know, seem to provide like comfort or support or assistance, they're just not officially recognised really. And I just wonder about that because I've got a mate, in fact you might know them, and they have a little dog that they take around everywhere with them. They carry the dog on their laps a lot of the time. And they say it's an assistance dog, it isn't, it's a Westie, but it's not an official... but... 	
mat	But it is genuinely... 	
liz	... for that person it is used in that way in many ways. But it's then not recognised and they have to fight with it all the time. 	
mat	But all pets, they say, give psychiatric and psychological warmth and comfort though don't they and is that the kind of assistance that we're talking about here?	
liz	Yeah. 	
mat	It's a borderline case that one isn't it? 	
liz	Well no. We had an email in from Lisa who's saying is there an organisation in the UK that offers support in this way? "I suffer from severe mental illness and agoraphobia. I've a dog that helps me live a more normal life but I'm yet to find any help or information as to who to contact so that they can be recognised as a support dog." So she's not a trained up, you know, like a guide dog for the blind or a proper assistance dog, it's just a dog who's become an assistance dog because I guess they began as a pet. If there isn't an organisation that kind of... is there a one day course that pets can go on to become official... can they train? Is there an NVQ in assistance? 	
mat	Psychic assistance?	
liz	Absolutely. 	
mat	I don't know.	
liz	Is there an assessment procedure? 	
mat	Was it Lisa who sent the email? 	
liz	Yes that's right. 	
mat	I'd say Lisa gap in the market. 
[Jingle: Narrow casting to the scroungers, benefit cheats and idle lead swingers of the UK, the Ouch Talk Show goes out twice a month, not even on proper broadcast radio but over the internet. Go to bbc.co.uk/podcast click on entertainment and you'll find us in there.]
It's news time and you know what, listeners, I'm all in flurry because she's sweeter than curry, yes we've got the one and only Shannon Murray here in the studio with us. 	
shannon	Hello.	
mat	Hello Shannon, lovely to you.	
shannon	Hello, how are you? 	
mat	I'm very well thank you, but I'm not as well as you apparently according to the Debenhams catalogue. And also you've been made the first disabled model to feature in an advertising campaign for a high street fashion brand. The glamour is dripping off you. How's it been going? 	
shannon	It's been really good. All the Debenhams stuff last year has had a knock-on effect with lots of other work which has been really good to do. Interesting meetings, a couple of good auditions leading to some work. I can't say much but hopefully they'll be something on air next year. And continuing writing, blogging and also getting a little bit more political. 	
mat	Wow!	
liz	Shannon, are they still doing the disability thing as well? After you did it and were the first have you noticed any other brands now?	
shannon	Not that I'm aware of no. Sadly I haven't seen anybody else kind of pick up the mantle and run with it. 	
liz	So it's been good for you which is great. 	
shannon	Yeah it's been good for me and hopefully somebody will return to it eventually, it's not going to go away, disabled people aren't going to go away, we're not going to stop shopping and needing clothes and... 	
mat	No indeed. We're here for the news. 	
shannon	Yes we are.	
mat	We are indeed.	
liz	First story we've got, Shannon, is the headline 'Blind Brazilian Ballet Dancers'.	
shannon	Yes. I found this one quite interesting it's a ballet company in Brazil in São Paulo called The Fernanda Bianchini Association which is the only Brazilian ballet company for the blind. I'm not sure if it's the only ballet company for the blind, I've never heard of this before, but they're a group of dancers who are all trying to convey the beauty of ballet whilst being blind and giving performances. But they talk about the difficulty of trying to teach movements when obviously the ballet dancer's never seen the movements. So the graceful move of a swan-like arm  they're having to feel and find their way round.	
mat	Let along the long run, leap and catch. 	
shannon	Exactly. I'm not quite sure how they're working with that. There are a few... 	
mat	Bells? 	
shannon	They haven't mentioned bells. There are a few images that have made me giggle when they talk about the student standing at the bar and doing all the movements, and trying to avoid them kicking each other. But I can just picture people standing at a bar just basically kicking the crap out of each other, trying to get the movements right. 	
liz	You see that's why people will go and watch it though isn't it? 	
shannon	Well yeah there is going to be that kind of you know the macabre trying to see can they actually do it, how's it going to work, are people going to kick each other in the head?	
liz	I was reading about this as well, I found it fascinating. And one of the things that really attracted me to it was it said, "Audiences will go because they want to see something different." And I thought I don't know if that's a good enough rea--... you know who would go and see it and what...
	
mat	I would go. 	
liz	... would their motives be though?	
shannon	But when people go to see you Mat do you think they're going to see something different? 	
mat	Yeah. I had to accept long ago that there was always going to be some section of the audience that are just there to flipper watch, as it were, do you know what I mean?	
liz	I think the BBC should do a whole month on that. 	
mat	Flipper Watch.	
liz	With Bill Oddie. 	
maT	With Bill Oddie. 	
shannon	Who needs Spring Watch, let's have Flipper Watch instead. 	
mat	Why do I have to have Bill Oddie? Why can't I have the sexy woman and the sexy guy?	
liz	He always does Bird Watch. 	
shannon	Kate Humble. You can have Kate Humble do it. 	
mat	I'd rather have you. So what's this other one? Ooh! Is Oscar Pistorius, famous South African boing boing legs a Paralympic traitor Shannon?	
shannon	I don't see him as a Paralympic traitor. I think you kind of choose one or the other. 	
mat	Is he not the Judas of disability? 	
shannon	Well you see I have this issue with, you know, if you then start setting the bar that high then how do other Paralympic athletes compete, do we all look like we're lazy underachievers? 	
liz	What's the story with this one?	
shannon	It's about he's trying to compete, he wants to compete in the Olympics as in the able bodied lot. And he... 	
liz	The proper games as we like to think of it. 	
shannon	Yes exactly proper games. 	
mat	Them! 	
liz	The grown up games.	
shannon	Not the ones that run parallel to them. And he just competed at the IAAF World Championships but he went out at the semi-final stages which doesn't really bode well for actually getting into the Olympics. 	
mat	Was he not fast enough was that why?	
shannon	Yes he didn't compete at the same speed.	
mat	Oh well it's cut and dried really isn't it? 	
shannon	Well no exactly. But some people obviously as you've said are finding he's a traitor trying to get out of the Paralympics and go into the Olympics, and it's a little bit like when there's all the guys that are coming up and trekking up to the North Pole and it's like can you just stop with the overachieving because it's making the rest of us look a little bit lazy. And if people are seen to be doing, you know, going further and further and further then what does that make the Paralympics look like if he's wanting to do the Olympics. And there are a few others that are aiming to do the Olympics as well. 	
liz	Yes because he's not the first is he? I don't know their names. 	
shannon	There's a swimmer called Natalie Du Toit who I think is a single leg amputee and she's completing in the Olympics. 	
liz	I just worry that from it we're just going to get a lot more people that think that they can assess us, do you know what I mean? 	
shannon	Yes and also it's like if you start - don't get me started on assessments - but you know if you've got all these people who are then trying to be as able bodied as possible how does that affect you know assessments for people who are sitting at home with similar disabilities and some assessor's saying, "You can't do that." 	
mat	I'm into martial arts as you know, if I was a Paralympian competent on behalf of Great Britain and was allowed to fight a non disabled person from a similar sport from the Olympics I'd insist that he came and fought me in the Paralympics and not the other way round. 	
liz	Like you come and join me in my world rather... 	
mat	Yes.	
liz	... than me having to come into yours. 	
shannon	I quite like that yes. 	
liz	I bet you're the exception. I bet you're the exception.	
mat 	I usually am the exception...	
shannon	That's quite a good way of doing it. 	
mat	... Liz, to any rules. 	
shannon	But that's a one-on-one sport so I think for that kind of thing that would actually be quite appropriate. Whereas obviously when it's something where you've got individuals running but you've got about eight people in a race...	
mat 	Insisting that they all...	
shannon	... then you'd have to get all seven of them to come to the Paralympics and they might be a little bit like, "Well what's in it for me?"	
liz	We'll have gone home three weeks earlier. The proper games is over. Final headline 'Sex and Disability the movie'.	
mat	What! 	
shannon	Yeah I couldn't help it. 	
liz	What? Are you involved in this, Mat? No I don't think you are.	
mat	I'm not. 	
shannon	It's a film that's just won an award at the Montreal World Film Festival called Hasta La Vista and it's about... 	
mat	Is this the life story of Arnold Schwarzenegger?	
shannon	Sadly no there would be too many legal issues with that I think. Anyway this is the story of three disabled young men who live with their parents and dream of taking a road trip to a bordello which advertises itself as having wheelchair access. So they have a road trip. 	
mat	Oh right. 	
liz	That sounds familiar. Wasn't that a BBC doc or something?	
shannon	It is yeah. The guy read about it with the BBC documentary which was called 'The One Night Only' which was the three British guys who made a similar voyage. 	
mat	That's right. 	
shannon	Yeah. And then he also read an article about a Spanish bordello which is actually genuinely equipped with wheelchair access so it's kind of the two inspired him to create the film, which apparently is very funny and highlights the friendship between the three guys, the importance of liberty and freedom. And obviously again which, you know, is an issue which is quite close to my heart is the importance of acknowledging that disabled people have sexual needs too. 	
mat	Absolutely. Is it like the Inside Show? Because there was that film 'Inside I'm Dancing' about two guys going on a road trip and there was the camaraderie and then basically they were played by both two non disabled people. But what about the Spanish one is that crip actors or do we know? 	
shannon	I haven't actually managed to find that out so I'm not entirely sure. I'm very interested to know, and it hasn't actually been shown here yet so I can't comment on it. 	
liz	I think they'd probably tell us if it was because I think... 	
shannon	Yeah there would be... 	
mat	They'd probably make a meal out of it wouldn't they? 	
shannon	Exactly. 	
mat	But it does sound like an interesting film definitely. 	
liz	It does. 	
shannon	But again it's this thing of like anything about sex and disability or anything that's generally a big film it's always disabled men! What about the disabled women? Where's the girl's road trip? 	
liz	But there was a... 	
mat	Guys, get writing.	
liz	But there was a quote... 	
shannon	Shaz and Liz do Vegas. 	
liz	Actually that would be... 	
mat	That sounds very naughty.	
liz	We'd always be seen as kind of... it would always be platonic because I was reading a quote about this film right. And it said audiences were asked how they viewed the film. Did they view it a film about friendship, love or sex? 90% of people said it was about friendship. 	
shannon	But is that people being nice to be on the record because they're too scared to actually ever say that anything's ever about sex?	
liz	Or is it because it was about disability and that's the little bit that they... I mean they don't know. 	
shannon	You still can't talk about disability and sex it's far too taboo.	
mat	Well there was that other film called 'Uneasy Riders' and it was about a guy who's really gagging for it who's a care worker at an institution, basically goes round all the motorway caravan site prostitutes with a tape measure finding one that has a door wide enough, sorts out a ramp, gets it sorted. So it's definitely a theme building. I, I mean apart from your absolute legitimate complaint what the women, what about just disabled people having sex where it's not them having to go to a prostitute? Not that I'm knocking the need for that, I'm not having a go at sex work or people who require sex workers, but come on some of us actually have our own sex. 	
shannon	I know. And when it is shown in a relationship it's always really strained - I don't mean like it's physically strained - it's emotionally strained. Like it's just full of pitfalls and problems which is so unrealistic. 	
mat	I know.	
shannon	And so slightly annoyed with that kind continual perpetuation really. 	
liz	But people are fascinated by it aren't they?	
shannon	I know. 	
liz	I think that's it, it will do well. 	
shannon	People will come up to me in pubs and bars, you know, the first question is, "Why are you in a wheelchair?" Second question is, "Can you still have sex?"	
liz	Shannon, thanks very much. 	
shannon	Thank you. 	
liz	[Jingle: Our blog is where you'll find all those juicy Ouch Talk Show extras. There's links to websites mentioned, pictures and sometimes a bit of behind the scenes gossip. It's all in the show notes which you can find at bbc.co.uk/ouch. That's bbc.co.uk/ouch.]
[Jingle: Now it's time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable.]	
mat	Yes it's our oh so un-PC quiz where we try to guess what's wrong with the caller on the line. And today there are not one but two willing victims ready to play. They are Jude and Laura from Oxford. Hello Jude and Laura.	
Jude and laura	Hello, hi. 	
liz	I'm wondering if I can know the difference between Jude and Laura. So which one's Jude?	
jude	Me I'm Judith yes. 	
liz	And Laura. 	
laura	Me. 	
liz	I see. I'm never going to know the difference. Great to have you on. So other than listening to the Ouch podcast of course what do you do? 	
laura	Well in our spare time we, we both have our own radio show online radio show that we do called 'The Murray Show' on FM.com. Just better blag it there. 	
liz	Of course. No I like it. 	
laura	Judith.	
jude	What are you talking about Laura? Just anything really isn't it? 	
laura	Nothing. Anything and everything really. I'm usually bitter and music, film and also any disability related campaigns that we work on with the different charities that we work with. 	
mat	Awesome. All right. Well I think we should get to it people, so here we go. Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Talk Show have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only ‘yes’ or ‘no’. It is both classic and thera--... almost got there. 	
LIZ	It is both what Mat? 	
mat	It is both... retake, it is both classic and therapeutic. Liz. 	
liz	And to take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Jude, are you disabled?	
jude	I am indeed.	
liz	Laura, are you also disabled?	
laura	I am too. 	
mat	Well then the 90 seconds on the clock and your time starts now!	
liz	Are you in fact only one person combined in two minds?	
jude	No.	
laura	No. 	
mat	Are you people that have a weird psychic link that supersedes our known reality?	
JUDE	No.	
LAURA	Some people believe so but no. 	
liz	So are you... 	
mat	Are you both people of short stature? 	
JUDE	No. 	
LAURA	No. 	
liz	Are you regular size?	
JUDE and laura	Yes.	
mat	Can you use your hands and feet?	
JUDE	Yes.	
LAURA	Yes. 	
liz	Do you use wheelchairs?	
LAURA	Yes.	
JUDE	Yes.	
liz	So if we saw you in the street we'd know that you were disabled? Are you twins?	
JUDE AND LAURA	Yes.	
mat	Are you conjoined twins?	
LAURA	No.	
liz	Oh we so wish you were. I'm sorry but we do, we so wish you were.	
mat	Okay. Have you got MS?	
JUDE	No. 	
Mat	Muscular dystrophy?	
LAURA	Sorry?	
JUDE	Yes.	
Mat	Yes? Yes? [Repeating - Muscular dystrophy, muscular dystrophy] Oh great.	
liz	Was that it? 	
jude	Yes.	
mat	OOHHH they fall like dominoes, dominoes! Well one, two dominoes in this case. We won, we won, we won ah ha! It's a fantastic impairment I don't believe we've had it on the programme what - ever? 	
liz	Don't think we have.	
mat	Have we?	
liz	I don't know. But it's brilliant isn't it. 	
mat	All right, okay. Tell us what is it like, what happens?	
jude	Well our form is more it's called Congenital Muscular Dystrophy and because we're both identical twins, it means you both have it. And it just means that the muscles we were born with haven't really developed... 	
jude	... as we've got older. 	
liz	And are you identical in appearance?	
laura	No thankfully.	
Mat	Ooh!	
liz	That but that would be really funny because just because like if you were you know that one of you could go into somewhere and say yeah can you tell me where the disabled toilet is, and they could go there. And then the next one could wheel up as well and be exactly the same. So when people find out what's wrong with you what are they usually nosy about, what do they want to know? 	
laura	They do ask because we're quite obvious when we're out and about and there's two of us in a wheelchair people are always quite curious to see if we're actually related. So we always gets lots of strangers... 	
jude	Just random people. 	
laura	Pardon?	
jude	Just random people isn't it?	
laura	Yeah random people asking us, "Are you sisters or are you twins? And it's like people will cross the street or just as they're passing they'll always ask us. I think because we're in also wheelchairs it makes us more approachable in a way to ask. I wouldn't dream of asking any other twins or whatever if they're related. And then they're always like interested that we both have the same disability sometimes. 	
mat	Yeah because it is quite rare isn't it? All right. Well I'm sorry to sort of ridicule you but you lost and we won agh ha! 	
liz	We won, we won, we won. 	
mat	You'll excuse us, we're old and tired and compared to you, and we never win this is like the second time ever we've won in five years. 	
liz	You're wonderfully new and up and coming, good luck with your show, we'll have a listen that sounds fab.	
mat	Yeah what was the show again, quickly? 	
jude	It's on FM.com. 	
mat	Okay. Listeners, check it out! 	
laura	Our show, any Thursday 3:00 to 5:00. 	
liz	Jude and Laura thanks for joining us and being on Veg, Veg, Veg. Bye.
	
jude and laura	Thank you. Bye.	
mat	Bye. 
[Jingle: Listen to, download or subscribe for free to the award winning Ouch Talk Show. Simple go to the BBC's main podcast site at bbc.co.uk/ouch once there you'll find us under entertainment or by typing Ouch into the quick search field.]	
liz	Joining us now from the RT studios in Dublin is adventurer and motivational speaker, Mark Pollock. Hello Mark. 	
Mark	Hello.	
mat	Hi there, Mark, how are you? 	
mark	All's good, all's good thanks. 	
liz	Life in Dublin okay? 	
mark	Well it's... I'm not quite sure whether I'm really living life at the minute because of I've been living in hospital for 14 months but all things considered it's okay. 	
mat	Yeah. Well look let's hear the story. Mark had just graduated and was facing a career in investment banking when he lost his sight at the age of 22. Once over the shock he spent the next ten years attempting ever more extreme physical challenges and making a living as a motivational speaker.	
liz	Then last year a serious accident changed the path of Mark's life once again. 	
mat	So tell us what happened, Mark, you were involved in a really weird accident, what happened?	
mark	Well it was back last June, June 2010 and life was going well for me, my business was going well. I'd just done an off-shore yacht race. I was in the process of writing a book and life was good. I was over in England at Henley Royal Regatta and at the end of the day's racing I'd gone home or at least back to the place I was staying, I'd gone to bed and the next thing I remember was being in Reading Hospital. I'd fallen from a second storey window into the garden where my friends were sitting for the evening. And I'd literally landed beside them. I'd fractured my skull, I had bleeds on my brain, broken ribs and ultimately I'd found out that I'd broken my spine in a number of places. And I was then paralysed from the waist down. 	
mat	Wow a pretty profound experience. Let's go back though to when you were 22 because to get... let's get the full like back story as it were. You were a competitive rower ready for a promising career in the City. Now what was it that set you on a different career path back then? 	
mark	That was back in 1998 and I was just at the end of my university career, I was about to fit my finals, I had a job offer to start in London in the City, and life changed back then when I suddenly lost my sight and went blind in the space of two weeks with a detached retina in my only good eye at the time. And since 1998 I've been blind. So I dealt with the blindness and... 	
mat	I should say so. 	
mark	Twelve years on I've added paralysis into the mix now. Whereas the blindness was very final, the spinal cord injury I've got to, on one hand accept that I can't stand up and walk; but on the other hand there is hope that I may be able to influence my recovery to some extent. So I have to balance this tension between accepting the reality of the now but keeping hope alive. It's disastrous right now but there is potential. 	
mat	Yeah indeed. But it must be a very difficult place for you to be. Now not too long after you lost your sight, Mark, you began to take on challenges of physical endurance that frankly most of us, disabled or not, wouldn't even dream of considering. Let me just quote on some of the things you've done. So in 2003 you did six marathons in seven days across China's Gobi desert. There was the Everest marathon of course, the highest in the world. In 2007 the first blind man to walk the South Pole. In 2008 you did the Dublin Marathon, high speed yachting in Argentina - I mean the list is frankly ridiculous. Now other disabled people have chosen this path what was your motivation for all this, Mark?	
mark	I didn't know for a long time and I didn't know as I went through the Gobi Desert in China or many of the other events that I did, but after ten years I decided that I really wanted to put the blindness behind me and I wanted to do something that was just out and out inspirational regardless of the blindness, I felt there was a little bit of getting a pat on the back and a well done because I'd been doing these events as a blind person. And I wanted to kind of put that behind me and I wanted to go and compete against other adventurers in a standalone inspirational event that didn't require the blindness to be inspirational, and that was the South Pole race - 43 days in Antarctica pulling sledges and racing against the likes of James Cracknell, Ben Fogle, ex-special forces people, other adventurers. And what I found on that journey in Antarctica was that the reason for doing these vents over the previous ten years wasn't to try and be extraordinary in any way it was actually as I skied into the South Pole I realised it was in an attempt to feel normal. And the feeling that I got as I arrived at the South Pole freezing, three stone weight loss, 43 days in Antarctica was one of being back to who I was before I lost my sight, the same feelings that I used to get as I raced as a 15 year old on the river in Northern Ireland when I used to row, and it was the same feeling that I got as I arrived at the South Pole. I'd been competing head to head regardless of the blindness it was a proper race and I enjoyed that feeling of contentment. 	
mat	And you're a man that clearly enjoys a challenge and have a goal to strive for, so what are your objectives now, Mark, are you going to try and seek a cure or do endless physio? I mean what's the situation at the moment with you? 	
mark	Well I spent time in Stoke Mandeville in England, I'm now in the rehab hospital in Dublin. About half way through the process roundabout January of this year I started to research what was going on around the world, and had an opportunity to go to California to a programme called Project Walk which is not a medical facility but it kind of sat well with who I am and what my experience was of the past and the ideas that at least in my mind, if the prospect for me are sitting down in a wheelchair for the rest of my life I'm pretty sure that my legs aren't suddenly going to start working. And Project Walk is an intensive physical therapy gym and the idea is that you get out of your wheelchair and you stand with the help of therapists, with the help of hoists and supports and you get weight through your legs and you start moving your legs. You try and join the movement that the therapists are doing, you try and connect that to your thoughts and try and open up new pathways around the damaged area. So it's a question of are you going to get any recovery if you sit down for the rest of your life - probably not. Is there a chance that you might get some recovery, you might open new pathways passing the damaged part of the spine if you stand up and move your legs - and to me it makes sense. I may be completely wrong but I'm willing to take the chance.	
liz	It's really interesting Mark because I've been listening to the questions and what you've been saying and I think that that place where you've got the chance of some recovery but obviously you also need to get on with your life and that balance, that's really hard isn't it I think. You're currently still in hospital, still in rehabilitation, are you facing many challenges in terms of moving out and returning to the kind of the life, the social life and all of that aspect that you used to have?	
mark	I certainly am. I'm trying to negotiate a care package to get out of hospital and start to live some kind of a normal life. There is a challenge on what do you do, do you focus on trying to recover for your entire life, and at the moment and for the last 14 months it's all been about my spine and the fact that I can't walk. And whilst I'm going to pursue all avenues to try and recover and explore the options through training and intense physical therapy to try and put myself in a position that I have the best chance to recover I don't want that to be my entire life, I don't want to be defined by that. So I need to fit that training into a more meaningful package of activities that I do on a day to day basis, and I want to squeeze out the negative side of the paralysis and fill my life with interesting things at the moment... 	
liz	So tell me... 	
mark	... I don't know what they're going to be. 	
liz	All the things that you achieved - the marathons and all of those things which is kind of the great challenge is it something like that that you've done or trying to secure a care package, you know, what are you finding more difficult?	
mark	Well I think the contrast with say my biggest challenge, the South Pole race, raising the sponsorship in tough times, doing the event, being on skis 16 hours a day in the cold that was all very hard, but fundamentally I chose to take that challenge on, I wanted to do it, I signed up for it, it was all very much a choice. What I'm doing now being in hospital, not being able to walk having had the accident in the first place none of it was a choice. I'm trying to secure a care package and a carer effectively to have someone with me all of the time it's something that I really don't want to have. But if I don't put that in place and if I don't fight and battle to get that in place I'm not going to achieve the ultimate goal which is to get out living my life again. So it's probably more difficult to battle to achieve something like getting a carer to achieve something like that that you don't really want to have as opposed to the South Pole which I absolutely loved. I suppose the interesting part from my point of view is where do you stop and what do you focus on because talking to you now I'm feeling fine, but most days over the last year I've been feeling absolutely awful and trying to have that battle and trying to get the things in your life in place need to be put in context. Always I'm trying to think to myself well if I get these things in place what will that allow me to do - and the reality is it'll allow me to work, pay taxes, contribute to society, fulfil my life and ambitions. So I don't want to have a carer to be on benefits to do any of this sort of stuff for fun, I want to put all this stuff in place so I can on and start contributing again. 	
liz	Yeah you basically just want the assistance so you can get back to the life of being who you are basically?	
mark	Yeah that's it, that's it. But definitely it's very, very difficult for people all over the UK and Ireland and I'm not sure it's always done in the most cost effective way for the taxpayer or the best way for the person who's been injured. 	
mat	It's never an easy question to answer this one but what would your advice be to somebody listening who's very recently acquired a disability? 	
mark	The biggest thing that I've learnt over the last 14 months since my injury is that whilst you have to have a bit of confidence in the people who are going to be operating on you and looking after you from a medical point of view, you have to be in charge and knowledgeable about your injury, about the medication that you're being given, you need to be on top of what your day to day prospects are whilst you're in hospital because everyone in hospitals are really under pressure - stuffing's an issue and so on and so forth - so you have to get on top of your injury. You have to not be afraid of the top consultant in the hospital, you have to ask him the questions, put him on the spot, get the answers that you need in order to understand your injury. Once you understand your injury you've a chance of moving forward. I saw a lot of guys in the hospital who didn't even know what their injury was and they didn't want to bother the doctor. So get on top of your injury, find out what your drugs are and why you're taking them and what the alternatives are and move forward from there I think. 	
mat	Great. Thanks ever so much for coming on and talking to us on Ouch, it's been fascinating and we wish you just the very best of luck in all your future pursuits.	
liz	And I look forward to having you back on the show when you're out of hospital and you're off to your next challenge. So hopefully you'll come back to us, Mark, yeah? 	
mark	Yeah. Thanks very much. Great to talk to you. 
	
liz	[Jingle: 
Liz:	Mat, how far reaching do you reckon the Ouch Talk 	Show is?
Mat: 	Well we get emails from all over the world and the 	podcast is available to listen to wherever you are in 	the universe maybe even beyond.
Liz: 	So anyway wherever you may be we'd love to hear 	from you.
Mat: 	All disabled aliens can email ouch@bbc.co.uk
Liz: 	That email address works on us too.]	
MAT	Who's that in the studio Liz?	
liz	It's the part of the show where we get to meet an unsigned disabled artist. Joining us in the studio is jazz musician with MS, Genie Cosmas	
Genie	Hi. 	
liz	Hello. I like that 'with MS' nice. Good to know that about you. So tell us a bit about yourself and your music, Genie.	
Genie	Well I'm a songwriter and a composer. I've been writing song since I've been 14. And I write lyrics as well. And I also teach music because that is my bread and butter. 	
liz	And you're the founder of Stream Records, a label for disabled musicians.  	
genie	Yeah. I formed that 20 years ago and that was while I was working for Disability Arts. And I did a lot of gigs for Disability Arts. And I realised that a lot of disabled artists didn't have a forum for their music, to distribute their music, and my idea was to do it through a label, so I formed Stream Records and I got funding fantastically enough, so I managed to record not only my own albums but I helped other people to record stuff as well. 	
liz	Do you think there's still a need for a specialist label?	
genie	I think there's a need for a label. I think because disabled artists need to get their music out there and whatever there is out there to help them it's fantastic. 	
mat	And what about now are you still it yourself?	
genie	I still do music, I teach music mainly, I teach jazz piano and classical piano and I get kids through exams. But I also want to perform it as well and I want to be able to perform it. I've got a really good musician who I work with called Ricky Edwards he's a saxophone player, he's also a flute player and he's got ME and I've got MS and really would like to perform it out there. If anyone wants us to perform just contact me on streamrecords.co.uk 	
mat	Now you once said that your disability causes you to express your emotions through your music. Tell us a bit more about that?	
genie	Yes because when I got MS I was quite young, I was in my early 20s and people didn't want to hear about it, they shut off all the time, they didn't want to hear about it. And I felt the only way to express myself was through music and that was why I started playing the saxophone.	
liz	Now when we have an unsigned disabled artist in with us we have a series of quick fire questions that we like to ask them. So we want to ask you them we don't want you to think about them just answer the first thing that comes into your mind. Are you ready Genie? 	
genie	Yes I'm ready.	
liz	You're ready. Okay. So first one, Cleo Laine or Katy Perry?	
genie	Cleo Laine.	
mat	Red or black?	
genie	Red.	
liz	Piano or Sax?	
genie	Piano. 	
mat	If I could meet anyone in the world it would be...?	
genie	I don't know. 	
liz	Fresh fruit or fry up? 	
genie	Fresh fruit.	
mat	Pet or assistance animal?	
genie	Pet.	
liz	Olympics or Paralympics?	
genie	Paralympics. 	
mat	I'm the kind of girl who would...? 	
genie	I'm friendly to everybody. 	
liz	My guilty pleasure is...?	
genie	Maybe having a little bit of what I shouldn't have. 	
mat	Designer gear or dressing gown?	
genie	Whatever's in my wardrobe. 	
liz	Download or hard copy? 	
genie	Both. 	
mat	People who like Genie Cosmas also like...?	
genie	Jazzy blues music. 	
liz	Brilliant. So, Genie, how can we find out more about you? 	
GENIE	Go to my website which is streamrecords.co.uk.	
mat	And your new album's called what?	
genie	'Cry from the City'. 	
mat	And how can we get that? 	
genie	You can get it from iTunes, Napster, Amazon or you can get it physically from my site. 	
mat	Fantastic. Thank you so much, Genie, it's lovely to see you and wish you the best of luck with the album sales. 	
genie	Thank you.	
mat	It's almost the end of the show people. We're going to play out now with one of your tracks, Genie, after the credits so hold tight. Now the production team today were Dan Slipper and Damon Rose, the studio manager was Jill Drabble and the producer was Emma Tracey. 	
liz	We'll be back with you in early October. Until then goodbye. Genie, over to you, please introduce your track.	
genie	It's called 'Take it Easy' and here goes.
[Playing music]