Ouch Podcast #75 – August 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Liz Carr 

liz	Thanks for downloading the show. It's our summer special. Yes I'm Liz Carr and with me in the studio today is Rob Crossan. He's going to tell you what's in store on our extra long podcast that you can take away on holiday with you on your iPod. 	
rob	Indeed! So in a minute I've got a bit of a confession to make and I don't feel very good about it. But moving on to golf - it's the Disabled British Open at the end of August and we'll be chatting with two competitors who will explain to us how it all works. And later, music from jazz blues rock band Olypsis.	
liz	Our quiz Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable returns for a brief outing. 	
rob	Yay! 	
liz	And we throw the entire team into the deep end for a chat about swimming. 	
rob	So for more details or links to things we mention in this show, go to our blog bbc.co.uk/ouch.
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show.]	
liz	Rob, it's good to be back in the studio with you. 	
rob	I know it's so nice to see you I can't tell you how nice it is to see you. 	
liz	And we've got a whole hour; we've got a whole hour show, so very exciting. 	
rob	It's almost too much. 	
liz	It is almost too much. I've got loads of things I need to get off my chest but actually I think you've got something even more important. 	
rob	Yeah. 	
liz	A confession? 	
rob	It's a confession which I feel a bit bad about because I know it's going to put me in a bad light but hell I'm going to tell you anyway. 	
liz	Okay it won't be for the first time. 	
rob	No definitely not. I went on a road trip for work in the States last week. And it was me in my role as a journalist and five other holidaymakers who were on the trip. It was Route 66 by the way. 	
liz	Excellent. 	
rob	Not that that's really important. But what's important is that one of the guy's on the trip was German called Rolke from Bavaria, very nice guy obviously apart from the fact that he had a really, really bad stammer, speech impediment, speech imped--, pediment is that right?	
liz	I think well...	
rob	Are you going to PC me on this?	
liz	Well I think it's speech impairment. I think is it, I think that's the terminology. 	
rob	What's the difference between impairment and impediment?	
liz	Um, anyway carry on.	
ROB	And it was awful because he obviously was quite an interesting guy, his English was totally fluent even though it was his second language, but his stammer was so bad that I couldn't understand what he was saying I'd say at least 50% of the time. And so even though he was trying to contribute to the conversation I did this thing that I think a lot of people who don’t really understand speech impairments do, whereby you feel a bit bad asking him to repeat what he just said for the sixth time. And you end up pretending that you understood. You go, "Yeah" and just glazing over. And so even though you didn't understand and in the end, he's not an idiot he must have known I was doing that. But I couldn't help it because in the end it just felt like a waste of both of our time to even talk to each other because I was keeping on asking him to repeat it, he was getting bored with repeating it and so let's just call the whole thing off, which is essentially what happened. 	
liz	So how long were you in this car together for? How many days?	
ROB	A week. 	
liz	Wow okay. 	
ROB	I and I felt I was deliberately isolating him from the conversation by the end, when we were in a group conversation because even though what he had to say I'm sure was totally valid it was slowing down the whole group dynamic. And I feel so, so bad about it. But I did I ended up almost... by the end of the trip I don't think I was asking him to repeat stuff six times anymore, I think I got up to two, I asked him twice and then I just kind of went, "Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly" as if I understood every word and I didn't at all. It was awful. Am I going straight to the fiery depths?	
liz	No you've been brutally honest.	
ROB	Have you done it? 	
liz	Well yes.	
ROB	Please.	
liz	Yeah no I have and I think that's it, I think what you're saying is actually something that most of us because just being disabled doesn't mean you suddenly you can translate everybody else's impairment or speech patterns. So absolutely I've been in the same situation. 	
ROB	So you've done the glazed over, "Yeah, yeah" and pretended to understand but you didn't have a clue. 	
liz	And felt really bad and not knowing where that line is, how many times you can ask and when to stop and when to just go oh hands up. But it's okay, we're alright, we are going to help however that's for other things, Rob; been listening in on our conversation is Ouch regular the wonderful Laurence Clark. Back on the show, we had you on the last show which was fab. Laurence help us here, what's the etiquette around is it impediment or impairment firstly?	
laurence	I would also say impairment. 	
liz	Okay. 	
ROB	Sorry what was that, Laurence? Oh yeah, yeah exactly. Sorry couldn't resist that.	
laurence	This is going to be a long conversation isn't it? 	
ROB	So you must have had people, idiots like me doing that exact treatment to you, giving you that exact treatment all the time?	
laurence	Yeah. 	
ROB	And it must make you feel pretty angry, right? 	
laurence	I have to say I've been in both sides of that situation. I've had people they can't understand me just sort of pretending to have understood me. And you're dead right, Rob, it's so obvious that there's no way to cover that up. And me, personally, I would always rather someone asked me to repeat myself, or just said, "Sorry, I can't understand you" I mean just be honest rather than have this socially awkward situation whereby they're trying to pretend that they've understood me. 	
liz	Okay so is that now official then, Laurence, kind of should we... is it okay... 	
rob	You don't mind me asking you six times?	
laurence	Yeah... 	
rob	Surely that would annoy you? 	
laurence	I think I'd rather that and after six times you get it and I'm included than just sort of have this sort of awkward kind of agreement. That said though years ago I went on a night out in Glasgow with a group of people that I didn't know. 	
rob	This sounds like a dangerous thing to do. 	
laurence	One had Cerebral Palsy similar to mine and she latched on to me as the person to talk to. Like Liz was saying she thought we had some sort of bond and that I would be able to understand her. And I couldn't understand a bloody word. 	
liz	Was that the CP or just the fact she was from Glasgow?	
ROB	Yeah a poor combination. 	
laurence	It was a combination of the two and I did ask her to repeat and repeat and repeat all night long. And we were going round pubs as well so the more she drank the worse... the more unintelligible it got. And in the end I just had to say, "I'm really sorry but I just can't understand what you're saying." 	
ROB	How many people are we offending on this - Glaswegians, alcoholics, people with CP - we're sweeping the board here. 	
liz	But, Laurence, come on it must work both ways you must use it to your advantage sometimes?	
laurence	How do you mean?	
liz	Well you know there must be people that you just can't be bothered talking to. 	
laurence	Yeah. 	
rob	Do you kind of ham it up a bit to be deliberately more incomprehensible? 	
laurence 	Yeah I was... 	
rob	Like when the TV licence man comes round or something like that? Or someone's asking for a train ticket.	
laurence	Years ago I was at this really posh party and Patrick Kielty kept coming up to talk to me. I just kept turning away or deliberately slurring my speech. I couldn't be bothered with that. 	
liz	Oh I don't like B list celebrities. I only make my speech intelligible to the A list. 	
ROB	Patrick Kielty get out of here. Robert de Niro yes please. 	
liz	Laurence, thank you very much for putting us right on this, it was a bit of a muddle we weren't sure so... Has that been helpful, Rob?	
ROB	Well I was just thinking I should be a lot better at this because there's so many people who have speech impediments who sound brilliant. I mean imagine living with James Brown I mean that bloke doesn't talk properly does he? And yet he must have had... but he's brilliant. You know can you imagine everyday life with J--... 	
liz	He's dead isn't he? 	
ROB	He is dead. I'd have loved to have... you say he had a speech impediment?	
liz	You didn't know he was dead...	
ROB	... he's probably the greatest soul singer...	
liz	... just worried now... 	
ROB	... of all time. He is, yes I was aware that he was dead. 	
liz	I didn't actually know he had a speech impairment. 	
ROB	What you don't... the sound.	
liz	I don't know I just thought that was how he sang. I just thought that was a style. 	
ROB	No I reckon he was like that all the time. "Would you like to choose something from the menu, Mr Brown?" "Good for! is not on the menu, Mr Brown." 	
liz	So do you feel better I mean is that... or do you need like a confession	
ROB	No I do, I feel better for the fact that Laurence genuinely doesn't seem to mind if I do end up asking him to repeat himself six times. Whether other people with speech impairments would mind that I don't know. 	
liz	It's going to be one of those it's totally different. You know last time we were talking about disabled toilets and I think we offended a whole load of people. Apologies if we did offend too many people but we do at least one person on the show. So there's always a group isn't there? 	
ROB	What was your conclusion I wasn't here on that show. 	
liz	It was kind of it's a minefield isn't it and you were at Glastonbury, we were talking about the Glastonbury toilet thing. 	
ROB	I got a right ‘verballing’ from one guy because I went into a wheelchair toilet despite the fact that there was nobody within about half a square mile of it. 	
liz	Ah because it was at Glastonbury where Wayne Rooney used the disabled toilet and he got a real earful. 	
ROB	Why not if it's empty. If there's a big queue of people then obviously I'm not going to jump in or join the queue but if it's empty, deserted then why not? The only reason I used it was all the other portaloos were occupied and I was gasping, quite frankly, so I went in and yeah came out again to this guy just going, "Er there's plenty of toilets for people like you over there" and pointed to somewhere in the far, far distance which would have taken me a good quarter of an hour to walk there. 	
liz	You're just justifying it. 	
ROB	I don't need to justify it. 	
liz	No, Liz, no I'm not, no I'm not. 	
ROB	So you think I'm in the wrong then? 	
liz	Well apparently because I said that I didn't think deaf people or people like that should use disabled toilets but apparently even people with eczema want to use them now. I don't know, I don't know what the rules are. But recently I've just been to a concert and everyone wanted to use the disabled loos and I do think maybe there just needs to be a sign that's kind of like priority for wheelchair... you know or for disabled people not just wheelchair users. 	
ROB	I think that's actually a very sensible solution, you know priority. 	
liz	And that's it because like you say if nobody is there then it does feel a bit silly and there is the odd chance that somebody will want to use the loo at the same time but it's only going to be a couple of minutes isn't it? 	
ROB	Yeah and just don't wee on the seat, you know. That's it, it's common etiquette. 	
liz	I want to come back... 	
ROB	Didn't you say you had a confession to make? 	
liz	Well yeah, as I say I want to come back to confessions.	
ROB	Are you going to bring it on? Okay. Go on then. 	
liz	Well it's not I actually need your advice because I've been working in a... 	
ROB	Oh dear. 	
liz	... proper job for the last few months. And that means I've been working mostly with non-disabled people and it's a strange world. And we had a do, a sort of an end of... a project was coming to the end okay, and we had the do. And two things happened that felt really horrible. Firstly we went out for lunch, so this was the whole team and I was the one person that had the empty seat next to them. Now I'm hoping that... because you're just going to laugh and go, "Liz, that's obviously just saying something about your personality" but... 	
ROB	Nothing I don't already know. 	
liz	Yes thank you. But that's happened to me a lot and I have told the story to a few friends of mine and they're like oh God I know that one like even from school that often if there was a... 	
ROB	And how painful is it at school?	
liz	Oh man!	
ROB	The kid who has an empty chair next to him. 	
liz	When there's no other chairs free. 	
ROB	That kid is really at the bottom of the level isn't he? So hang on a minute maybe they just thought…because they thought you had a PA turning up or something?	
liz	You know I think it's interesting because I did talk to somebody about it and they said, you know, actually there's sort of a hierarchy and you're, you know, at the table that you were on it wasn't the big boss. There was the big bosses, the middle bosses and then the lower people and I was with the lower people. 	
ROB	Is that media production companies work these days?	
liz	Yes. 	
ROB	It really is an upstairs/downstairs kind of relationship?	
liz	Yes and you've seen the mop cap they wear.	
ROB	And they had lobster thermidor, you had turkey twistlers?	
liz	Yeah it seems like that. No we were allowed to chew on their crusts. 	
ROB	Which they would nonchalantly toss to the floor. 	
liz	Which we gratefully... 	
ROB	Between each toast of the champagne flute. 	
liz	And so she was explaining it as it's sort of like a work class system so when the other people arrived and still chose not to occupy this extra chair. 	
ROB	So you think that you're basically paranoid because you think it's because no-one wants to talk to you? 	
Liz	Yes. But, can I just say? 	
ROB	Yeah. 	
liz	The next thing that we did, so we moved on from the pub and we then went to a park where they played rounders. Now if anybody doesn't know me I'm a wheelchair user I couldn't lift, I can barely lift a pen never mind a rounders bat, and it was not talked about but when we got there they asked me if I'd mind the bags.	
ROB	Oh God! I hope you said no?	
liz	I sat there, Rob, that's the thing. I'm 40 next year for God's sake and I'm sitting there minding the bags of my work colleagues as they run around playing rounders. 	
ROB	So hang on a minute what would you have preferred them to say? 	
liz	I was crying inside, Rob. 	
ROB	I'm sure you were, that's horrendous. But what would you have preferred them to say because they obviously would have known that you weren't going to be playing rounders, so what do you do? 	
liz	Well I think the stuff you know there's time... 	
ROB	Liz, here's a bottle of Vodka, get with it. 	
liz	Maybe. You know I think sometimes when you feel really, really comfortable and if I'd have felt really comfortable, but obviously my confidence was knocked from being Billy no mates at dinner anyway. Then you go to that. Because then I think if it had been the right environment I kind of would have had a go, you know what I mean, and that usually breaks down kind of you know you sort of take the whatever out of it, out of yourself... 	
ROB	But would you have liked that they're going, "Oh go on let Liz have a go." 	
liz	Well no you see also as well as that there's, "Come on, Liz, you get the bat we'll hold it for you." 	
rob	I think you'd rather be holding bags than doing that, surely? Surely that's horrendous? 	
liz	I'd rather have been at home you know what I mean? But I just want to say, you know, if anyone has any advice on these sorts of situations I never really know how to deal with them. I don't think it gets particularly better with age maybe it's about confidence. But we have the whole work company has their summer do coming up and we're going out to a stately home and it's 'It's a Knockout'. 	
rob	Oh and you're planning to what mind the bags for the day, is that the plan? 	
liz	Yeah. If you're an international or too young to remember 'It's a Knockout' how would you describe 'It's a Knockout'? It was a programme on BBC... 	
rob	It was a dark period for British broadcasting. 	
liz	It's kind of like an assault course where people wear large, stupid costumes. And it's the most probably inaccessible.	
ROB	It's the most asinine and inaccessible games show ever invented. 	
liz	Yes. 	
rob	And it was presented by Stuart Hall who I think is now about a million years old. 	
liz	Somebody has suggested that maybe they'll get me to hold the scorecards. 
[Jingle: You can get our show automatically by your podcast receiver software or on your mp3 player every time a new one becomes available. Go to bbc.co.uk/podcast click on entertainment and scroll down until you get to the Ouch Disability Talk Show. There you'll find details on how you can subscribe for free.]	
rob	Everyone seems to be talking about golf at the moment with Rory McIlroy riding high. Well later this month disabled people get into the game with the British Disabled Open a two day event in East Sussex. So joining me here in the studio here are Richard Saunders and Richard Warren, say hello.	
RICHARD S	Hello. 	
ROB	Hello. Now Richard Saunders is competing in the elite event and the other Richard is in the junior event taking place there too. So what I want to try and do is get to the bottom of how you play this game. But let's just get the terrible pun out of the way first. Richard senior what's your handicap? 	
richard	Well I've got short arms and deep pockets. 	
rob	And golf-wise your handicap?	
richard	Golf-wise I play off 18. 	
rob	18. And Richard junior who has got the coolest haircut of anyone we've had in the Ouch studio for a long time, what's your handicap?	
richard j	28. 	
ROB	And your disability handicap? 	
richard j	Well I have Cerebral Palsy. 	
ROB	Okay, got you. I'm sorry about the pun I was forced to do that under duress. So what I know about golf I've played it once in my whole life, so I'm speaking from a position of utter, utter you know real novice level here. It seems to me that with the eyesight you need the physical agility, you need it must be up there as one of the most non-disability friendly sports. Can I throw that to the floor and see how you respond? 	
richard j	Because of the factor of sport the perceiving of it has sort of been passed up and it hasn't changed. So what we're trying to do is trying to change that perception that people, anyone can play it whether you're a normal able-bodied golfer or a disabled golfer. 	
ROB	So I'll move over to other Richard, Richard senior shall I call you. You said earlier at the start that you have short arms and deep pockets and it seems to me that there must... well golf whether you've got a disability or not it's one of the most expensive sports out there, in terms of additional equipment that you might need, I mean it must cost you a fortune isn't it just beyond the pockets of most people with disabilities? 	
richard s	No, not at all. I was very fortunate that I actually approached Titleist, club makers in St. Ives in Huntingdon, and I went to them eight years ago with a prototype golf club and they were keen to help me progress along that field. And since then, it's work ongoing, but they actually make my clubs, my drivers 59" long, they're specially made. 	
rob	How much longer is that than normal length?	
richard s	That's probably - I'm trying to think what a normal club length is young Richard - is it about 36"?	
richard j	Yeah I'd say 36.	
ROB	So it's almost double the length then? 	
richard s	Correct. 	
ROB	Right, okay. So go on then tell us more about your tools. I don't really know the difference between a nine iron and a whatever, a pitching wedge or whatever so is there anything particularly exceptionally weird or strange that you have, apart from the extra long club which you've just told me about? 	
richard s	It's the way I hold them. And the degree of loft that is put on the clubs. I thought it was best to go to the experts to see what they could actually do and help me progress, which I did eight years ago. 	
ROB	And who's going to win this year then? Going to get your predictions please. 	
richard j	Well because it's the first year of the junior one I can't say because we've not had it before but I think we’ve got a few good…	
rob	You might have a better guess for the seniors? 	
richard s	The seniors, the gross winner, if I was having a little wager, I would have a punt on Stefan Marc Holt who's from Denmark, he's a 0.7 handicapper. Or else I'd have my money on either Duncan Hamilton-Martin, Mark Smith or Alistair Berry. He's a young golfer, 19 year old golfer, from Ravenspark in Scotland, he has no hands at all. 	
ROB	So out of those four you mentioned there's three Brits there so there is a chance for us to actually...? 	
richard s	Absolutely. 	
ROB	And how do you play golf if you don't have hands by the way? 	
richard s	He has special attachments that he has to the golf club and to his hands, it's a bit like... best described as probably bits of Velcro and - I'm trying to think what else it is - it's like a cup that he slides his hand or his stumps into and then he actually attaches that to the golf club. 	
rob	There is a solution for every disability isn't there? There's basically no excuses. If you want to play golf it doesn't matter what your disability is the equipment is there so you can get on with it. 	
richard s	Golf is for all. 	
rob	Yeah. Well thanks so much Richard and Richard, Richard Saunders and Richard Warren for coming in. The British Disabled Open is at the East Sussex National Golf Resort and Spa on the 20th and 21st of August. It's too late to enter this year but you can go along and watch. 
[Jingle:
Rob:	Liz, Liz!
Liz:	Hang on let me just finish updating my status. 
Rob:	But Liz we need to tell the Ouch listeners how to 	find us on these new fangled social networks.
Liz:	Wait! I'm just tagging you in my post. 
Rob:	You can find, friend and follow on Twitter at 	bbcouch. 
Liz: 	And on Facebook by liking our Ouch BBC fan page.
Rob:	But mostly we're on our blog bbc.co.uk/ouch. 
Liz:	It was so much simpler when we were at W12 8QT.
Rob:	You what?]
[Jingle: Now it's time for Vegetable, Vegetable, or Vegetable]
	
liz	That's Laurence Clark there, and if you couldn't understand him he said, "And now it's time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable" 	
ROB	Oh really? 	
liz	Yes. 	
ROB	I thought it was vulture, hairnet and cornflakes. 	
liz	Absolutely. 	
ROB	I had no idea. 	
liz	Cleared it up for lots of people anyway. It's a wonderful quiz where we guess what's wrong with the caller on the line. And today it's Phil in Northern Ireland. Hello Phil. 	
phil	Hello, good morning. 	
liz	Good morning to you. I really want to say "top of the morning" but I won't. 	
rob	Especially considering your accent doesn't sound Northern Irish in the slightest. Can you clear that one up for us? 	
phil	No I'm originally from up in Northeast England. 	
liz	Northeast England nice.	
rob	Is it County Durham, Newcastle? 	
phil	County Durham. 	
rob	County Durham right okay.	
liz	So what takes you over to Northern Ireland? 	
phil	A six week job ten years ago. 	
liz	Okay. Because I was just going to say, "Oh you're over there on a course now." Right he works. He's works so we can, you know, we're trying to get any bit of evidence here about what's wrong with you, Phil, that's what we do. 	
phil	Right. 	
rob	And he thinks six weeks lasts a long time in Phil's world, that's another clue. 	
liz	No sense of perception. 	
rob	Could be something mental yeah. 	
liz	Yeah. 	
phil	After six weeks I've ended up with two children, a wife, a cat, a dog and a mortgage. 	
liz	Oh my God is that what happens when you go away? 	
phil	Yeah. Bloomin' heck! It's the wrong job I tell you. 	
liz	Is it... 	
ROB	I don't think I want to be a travel writer anymore. Phil's put me off. 	
liz	Is it an assistance cat, Phil?	
phil	Pardon?	
liz	Is it an assistance cat?	
phil	God knows. 	
ROB	He doesn't do much assisting. 	
liz	I should say it's a slightly dodgy line so we might repeat the odd thing if we're having trouble. 	
phil	Right, okay. 	
liz	So... 	
rob	Let's explain the rules. 	
liz	Shall I do it? 	
rob	For Phil. Yes do it. 	
liz	Okay. Are you ready Phil? 	
ROB	It's been a long since we've done this.	
phil	Yes. 	
liz	Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Talk Show have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only ‘yes’ or ‘no’. It is both classic and therapeutic.	
rob	And to take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Phil from Northern Ireland, are you disabled?	
phil	Er yes I was last time I looked. 	
rob	That's good enough for us. 	
liz	Phil, we've got 90 seconds on the clock, our time starts NOW! Phil, have you got use of your legs?	
phil	Yes.	
ROB	Have you got use of your arms? 	
phil	Yes.	
liz	Your eyes?	
phil	Yes.	
rob	Ears?	
phil	Yes.	
liz	Your mind?	
phil	Yes. 	
liz	Oh God well that's pretty much everything isn't it? 	
rob	What about your stomach? 	
phil	Definitely yes. 	
liz	If we were to see you in the street would we know that you were disabled?	
phil	Yes.	
liz	Oh okay. Do you wear a patch on your eye? 	
phil	No. 	
ROB	Do you have one of those kind of things that monitor mucus levels hanging out of your nose?	
phil	No. 	
liz	Do you have any prosthesis? 	
phil	No. 	
rob	Do you have all your hair?	
phil	Yes.	
liz	Is it a condition that you were born with? 	
phil	Yes. 	
liz	Oh we've got a bornie like them. 	
phil	A bornie!	
rob	Can you eat and drink just like normal people do?	
phil	Yes. 	
liz	Can you use your fingers fine? 	
phil	Yes. 	
liz	Have you got all your toes? 	
phil	Yes.	
liz	Oh man! 	
ROB	There's nothing wrong with you. 	
liz	Is it something really quite famous?	
phil	Pardon?	
liz	Is it something really quite famous?	
rob	It's a disability we will have heard of or... 	
phil	Yes.	
rob	... is it really obscure?	
liz	Oh man! Have you got MS?	
phil	No.	
liz	ME?	
phil 	No. 	
Liz	Spina Bifida?	
phil	No. 	
rob	Ooh, ooh, ooh have you got depression?	
phil	Not yet. 	
rob	The 90 seconds aren't up yet, Phil. 	
liz	Not after those ten years. Eczema?	
phil	No. 	
liz	Diabetes?	
phil	No. 	
liz	Heart problems? 	
phil	No. 	
liz	Oh no! 	
rob	Phil I suspect you've lampooned us big time. 	
phil	Oh good. 	
liz	I don't understand.	
ROB	It's got to be something to do with your mental state of health surely?	
phil	No definitely not.	
liz	No because he said... but he said when you look at him. 	
ROB	Yeah. 	
liz	Didn't he? 	
rob	Oh so you can tell... yeah of course so it must be physical. 	
liz	You see that's the thing. Okay...	
rob	Oh we didn't ask him if he was a little person. 	
liz	Are you a little person? 	
phil	Yes. 	
liz	Oh man!	
rob	Why didn't I ask that? 
[chiming: Person of restricted growth, little person, person of short stature, whatever they are calling themselves these days.  Person of restricted growth, dwarf, little person]	
ROB	Damon, Damon producer, turn that off. You're making me feel ill. 	
Liz	Phil, oh man! 	
rob	So we haven't won, no, no I was too stupid, I should have asked that a long time ago. 	
liz	How little...	
phil 	I nearly put my foot in it when I said I came over here for six weeks, because I came over for Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs panto. 	
rob	Came over for small people reasons. Which dwarf were you? 	
phil	Grumpy. 	
ROB	You're a good grumpy, Phil. 	
liz	Phil, you don't sound like you're a short person. 	
ROB	No you've got a very resonant baritone there. 	
phil	That's what everybody thinks. Everybody thinks because I talk... my voice is so deep that I've got to be at least 6'4". 	
liz	It's true. 	
rob	You sound like a Viv Reeve's character. 	
phil	That's probably what threw you. 	
rob	Are you doing any more dwarf related acting, Phil?	
phil	Yeah, I do films, TV, pantomimes, theatre work. 	
rob	Anything coming up which we can watch you in? 	
phil	I've got...	
rob	Panto season isn't that far away. 	
phil	... pantos coming up in December. And there's a possible film going to be filmed in Northern Ireland so that's a possibility as well. 	
rob	And have you ever done a role where they haven't made a feature of your height and you've just been there as a straight actor you haven't had to play a dwarf or a midget?	
phil	No not really because I mean... 	
rob	Does that annoy you? 	
phil	No. 	
rob	It doesn't bother you at all? 	
phil	No not in the slightest it's not….	
rob	A cheque's a cheque at the end of the day. 	
phil	Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs they're not going to pick anybody else are they? 	
rob	Did they find seven or did you have to multitask?	
phil	Oh no, no they found seven. 	
rob	Okay, good that's a relief.	
liz	What do you find, you know, when people see you in the street and whatever do you get a lot of hassle, a lot of people looking at you or saying weird things to you?	
phil	No, no, no, no. Everybody knows me and plus I never really get any hassle even when I go to the pubs and that because I'm the one who speaks first. 	
rob	Well Northern Irish people must be a lot more tolerant then because Kiruna who sometimes presents this shows, she's an Australian short person, and she tells me she gets hassle in London every single day, without exception, every day someone gives her some kind of clever remark. 	
phil	I've never really had any hassle. 	
rob	You're obviously... yeah but the thing is I don't know she looks quite vulnerable doesn't she? You probably look like you could handle yourself. 	
liz	I want to see you now. 	
rob	Yeah I do. 	
phil	Once you open your mouth it's like nobody would mess with you, Phil. 	
rob	No, no you've got the voice of a bouncer. Can you just say to me, "If your name's not down you're not coming in."	
phil	I've played it, I've been a bouncer once before. 	
rob	Yeah?	
phil	In a proper night club. 	
rob	Go on you've got to tell us a little bit about... tell us your bouncer story, where and when and did you ever... 	
phil	It was in Leeds. 	
liz	Oh wow. 	
phil	And, oh God, a fair few years ago now, it was basically just standing outside the door. 	
liz	And you were a proper bouncer not a novelty one?	
phil	No, no proper bouncer. 	
liz	Wow! 	
phil	Mind you inside the door there was two 6' odd fellas just in case. 	
rob	Because a lot of people would think you wouldn't be able to do that that you'd need to be a little bit more physically threatening or did you find that you ever had to put people in headlocks or I don't know...	
phil	Oh no there's always, being small there's always places you can hit. 	
liz	But if you were faced with a bouncer that was a small person actually it would put you off your guard wouldn't it? Do you know what I mean? You'd be like oh my God, you just would. Oh Phil we don't want to get rid of you... 	
rob	No. 	
liz	We're being told we have to get... we need to move on. 	
rob	I'm genuinely fascinated by your... 	
liz	I wish you were here in the studio for the next hour. Phil, you've been fantastic for beating us yet again you're going to get an Ouch travel mug. 	
phil	Right. 	
liz	Right. 	
rob	You wish you hadn't bothered now. Sorry for wasting your time anyway, Phil. 	
phil	No problem, you haven't wasted my time. 	
rob	We really enjoyed speaking to you. And thanks for taking part. And thanks for... well not thanks for beating us but yeah you beat us.	
liz	Thanks, Phil, take care. 	
phil	No problem. Thanks a lot. 	
rob	Bye. 	
liz	Bye. 	
phil	Take care, bye.	
liz	And if you want to take part in any games or quizzes on the Ouch Talk Show...  	
rob 	And frankly how could you not after that exchange?	
liz	How could you not? Drop us an email and tell us about yourself ouch@bbc.co.uk is our address. That's ouch@bbc.co.uk. 
[Jingle: 
Rob:	People often ask me, Rob why is Ouch a podcast and 	not on the normal radio? I always tell them that 	podcasts are special, they're niche, they're authentic, 	they're about talking on a level with an audience you 	understand and who understands you. And since 	when was radio normal anyway I say. You name me 	one normal person on the radio, go on, go on try.
Liz: 	Rob, you want to be on the radio don't you? 
Rob: 	Yes please, Liz.]
Well I've got the team, the Ouch production team round the table, we've got Damon, hello Damon.	
damon	Hello. 	
liz	Dan.	
Dan	Hello.	
Liz	Emma.	
Emma	Hello. 	
liz	And of course me and Rob are here as well. Just to find out how we're going to spend our summers, but just to find out how do normal people spend their summers, what do they do?	
rob	Who they? 	
liz	Emma, went out onto the streets of London to find out. 
[Playing clip: 
Sunshine, warmth I suppose holidays, go for a bike ride along the river. 
Everyone's really happy. Stay outdoors, park, go to theme parks.
Hot, heat, fun, kids running around screaming, yeah.
I don't do the swimming, I don't do the sunbathing I just try and hide from the heat, I have to take vitamin D tablets. 
Take a lot more walks, have picnics, go visit a lot of parks.
Emma:	And do you go on holiday? 
I try to but now that I've got a baby it's less possible. But in the past yes I used to go on holidays for a few weeks. 
We usually go beach and like there's these canal things and you just eat chips there.] 
	
rob	Eating chips by a canal. 	
liz	Eating chips by the canal. Wow! 	
rob	Social Services get that boy's number. 	
liz	I always wondered what they did with their summers. 	
rob	I love it and it's so good to have a Vox Pop. All we need now is for me and Liz to talk about the coffee and we've got the world's worst local radio programme. 	
emma	Thanks Rob, I put a lot of work into that. 	
rob	That's alright, no problem. 	
liz	But actually we do need to reveal something that actually Dan, I hope you don't mind me saying, but you are, for all intents and purposes, normal.	
dan	Yeah I'm the token. 	
liz	You are the token amongst us. We don't want to discriminate so we would like to start this discussion, Dan, how do you spend your... 	
dan 	Well you know I do rock climbing, skydiving, surfing, marathon running, long jump, pole vault... 	
liz	Get out! 	
dan	shot putt and synchronised swimming. And water skiing. 	
rob	And then after breakfast? 	
dan	What do you guys do? 	
rob	Well you heard the canal and chips. What's wrong with that?	
liz	And he's wearing shorts just to rub it in as well. Look at my legs not a colostomy in sight. Look at that.  	
rob	Or just look at my legs - one, two. 	
liz	Damon, are summers good for you are they are a time when you moan that you don’t like that heat, what is it?	
damon	No I'm not a big fan of heat because - and this is going to sound terribly indulgent - I've recently - I feel embarrassed to say it - I've recently discovered I've got a bit of a sleeping disorder which unusually impacts on how hot you get. 	
liz	Right. 	
rob	So basically if it gets too hot you fall asleep and burn? 	
damon	It's this thing called 'Non 24 hour sleep wake disorder'. 	
liz	Can we not have had you on Veg, Veg or Veg.	
damon	And I'm blind and what it is it's to do with the fact that because I can't see because I don't experience daylight my body clock is completely out of sync. So I have about a 24 and a half hour clock. So it gradually goes on and then my... 	
rob	I hate to tell you this, Damon, but even your guide dog's unconvinced he's walked over to where me and Liz are. 	
damon	Tell me when to stop but apparently... 	
rob	Beckett's moved off.	
liz	You know Damon, you know, you have a sleep problem we don't hearing this story now. This is fine. 	
rob	I think I've got narcolepsy.  	
liz	It's fascinating please carry on. 	
damon	Well I will. 	
liz	No Liz was being sarcastic. 	
damon	All the timings of your sort of gastric juices go up the wall. 	
emma	Go up the wall! That's disgusting.	
damon	I'm going to stop right here. 	
liz	No, no it's great to hear about what's wrong with you, Damon, we love that. Any other... 	
Damon	So I get very hot is essentially the thing. I was very hot this morning.  Could do without the summer!	
liz	Are you just saying I get very hot in bed? Is that what you're saying?	
damon	No, no, no just on the tube on the way in. 	
rob	Lord no, not that. 	
damon	I'm not, really hot now. 	
liz	And it's freezing in here. 	
rob	And this is like a meat locker in the studio this morning. Liz is actually... you've been shivering quite a lot. 	
liz	Look at me I'm in one of those silver foil blankets doing the podcast today. 	
emma	But, Liz you have a bit of a temperature issue with the summer too though don't you? 	
liz	Yes I was thinking that I was thinking how cruel of me laughing at you, Damon, because I'm very slim and small and I think because of that I don't deal with temperature very well. So it's I'm either too hot or I'm too cold, there's about one degree when I'm content and the rest of the time I'm not happy in the summer. So I do understand as much as, you know, we were laughing about that. Emma?	
emma	Hm. 	
Liz	I love this. Summer for you what does it mean? 	
emma	Often it means swimming but when you're blind as I am swimming comes with its own issues, but they don't just start at the poolside or the sea or the lake or whatever, they start in the changing room. So this is solo, if I go to the pool solo, and I go into the changing room to get ready, you know you've got to do that I guess you can't go there in your swimsuit it's not, you know, it's not socially acceptable. 	
dan	Well you could.	
emma	You could. 	
emma	So I go in... 	
rob	In Sweden.	
emma	And I don't know if you've no--... I don't know if you've noticed this but changing rooms are a bit, for me like the Bermuda Triangle. They've sort of got no corners or loads of corners I suppose, they're not square and they've got loads and loads of different angles and little kind of... 	
rob	That's the aisles of lockers. They can be a little bit confusing. 	
emma	Yeah but if it was straight aisles but they've got all these little kind of side bits where people... 	
liz	Little nooks and crannies isn't it?	
emma	Little nooks and crannies. So I'm in there, I go in and I like to try and use the same locker but not always available and that's a problem with life isn't it? So I go in with my cane or my dog, with the dog it's funnier, and I try and find a space to change and somewhere to put my stuff. But in order to do that I need to feel around me in the changing room. 	
rob	Oh you could feel all sorts of things couldn't you? 	
emma	Well yeah because everything I touch is in some way undressed or getting undressed or undressing. And the dog sniffs them. It's not just me touching them the dog will sniff the person. 	
liz	And you're feeling them up while your dog's sniffing them. 	
emma	It is happening to me when I go swimming. And they're all very nice, very nice but it's beginning to cause a problem for me. 	
liz	Have you got a reputation through it?	
emma	Well I'm worried about getting a reputation to be honest. When you stick your hand out looking for a locker and you know. 	
dan	What do people say?	
emma	"Oh! Are you alright?"	
rob	Do that again and I'll call the police. 	
damon	What have you grabbed or what do you think you've grabbed? 	
emma	The blindy touch is quite light because you're used to touching stuff and you know you don't grip.	
rob	So you're caressing?	
emma	I suppose I am. I think I've got a boob once. Hair, head hair. Yeah I haven't... I don't tend to go for face level I tend to try and get the bottom lockers. 	
liz	Lower down. 	
emma	Oh God this isn't going well. 	
damon	I would go to face level in future. 	
emma	This isn't going well. 	
rob	You'd rather poke them in the eye. 	
emma	Yeah. But then I mean which is I suppose not so funny but the other part of my story is when you go through to the pool area and you need to find out where you can swim without again touching people and having them get really angry with you for swimming in their spot. Because obviously you go in and you kind of scope out the pool and see where people are. So I haven't quite figured out the etiquette of how to get someone to give me the wall. You know there's always one wall and if there's no lanes I need to swim along the wall. But I haven't quite figured out how to... I don't know whether I should just get the lifeguard's whistle and go, "Excuse me!"	
rob	It's easy just shout very loudly and belly flop, people will get out the way. 	
emma	"Coming in!" 	
rob	Liz, on the other hand is terrified of all forms of water. 	
emma	Yes.	
rob	Aren't you? 	
liz	Yes.	
rob	Do you even bathe? 	
liz	I barely drink it you know what I mean? It always has to be a hot chocolate now. Because it always equals hydrotherapy, you know it does. 	
rob	Which you hated. 	
liz	Which I hated and I had bad experiences. But I love the idea... 	
rob	Was that because someone tried to drown you? Or you just hated the whole notion of maybe feeling better?	
liz	Although that was my parents for different reasons. They didn't expect to have a disabled child it was unpleasant you know. But no... 	
rob	This was the canal with the bin liner yeah okay. 	
liz	With the kittens that was me. 	
rob	I read about that in the paper. 	
liz	That was me. But I do like the idea of swimming. I like the idea of buying swimwear and that whole ooh having a nice shirt or having a sarong and I like, you know.	
emma	You like the accessories basically.	
liz	The accessories. 	
rob	You're an après swim kind of person.	
liz	I sort of am but no I like the idea of them I don't say I wear them. 	
rob	Are you one of those strange people that hangs around leisure centre canteens drinking bad coffee out of a Styrofoam cup. 	
liz	I would like to be able to swim and enjoy water because I do think it's a, you know, any time of year not just summer it's looks a great thing to do. 	
emma	But can I ask a question about the afterwards changing area.	
liz	Yes.	
emma	I don't even know the etiquette about how, you know, how much other people are covering up or where they are, you know, I just don't want to get naked in front of somebody. 	
liz	It's so different. 	
emma	It's really hard. 	
liz	It's so different isn't it because I think a lot of people... I do get a bit embarrassed because some people they just take it all off, right in front of you.	
rob	Oh yeah absolutely. 	
emma	So they do, not that I intend to do that, but they do do that?	
liz	Yeah, oh yeah. 	
rob	Especially in mens' changing rooms. 	
LIZ	Really?	
rob	Yeah, yeah there's definitely two types of man... 	
emma	But you see now that I know that... 	
rob	The type that will be discreet, he'll get naked but it'll be discreet. And then there's always the guy who has to have the longest shower, you know, got to get the soap lathered up, you know, always talking as well. Talking to the guy underneath the next shower. It's like no alright I'll get naked but I'm not going to start talking while you're lathering up your *deleted* no I'm not. 	
liz	No!	
emma	This isn't disability really is it? 	
rob	Well I can see, my eyesight isn't that bad you see I can see what they're doing. Like if I was blind it would be better because at least I could talk to them without knowing what on earth they're doing. 	
liz	But I think that's interesting that, for me, you're not seeing what's around you but still it bothers you what state of undress people are in, and you probably wouldn't... would you strip off? 	
emma	I'd be very cagey. But now that I know that everyone strips off or some people do I'm not so bad. But I am worried, more worried about going into the changing room and feeling my way around now that I know people are completely naked.	
dan	I'm confused by the technicalities here. So you dry off and then get dressed, you don't kind of undress and then redressed?	
emma	That doesn't make any sense to me at all. 	
dan	No. So you have your bathing costume on and you put your clothes on and go home with your bathing costume on?	
emma	No. 	
dan	So you take it off. 	
emma	No I get ready, I get changed I just don't like it. 	
dan	Oh okay, sorry I was confused.	
emma	And I try to cover up and I don't know where everyone else is or what they're doing so I kind of don't know I mean I could be in an empty changing room and I... 	
rob 	Do you feel like they're all clustered around you... 	
emma	... could be doing a dance with my towel trying to.. .	
rob	... with iPhones taking photographs of every stage?	
emma	Yeah maybe. 	
rob	They're probably not doing that Emma.	
emma	Can we talk about something else now. 	
liz	Shall I move it on?	
emma	This has gone completely silly. 	
liz	When you did the Vox Pop and asked people what they did in the summer I was amazed at how quite just regular and normal and boring it was, I don't know if anyone else was a bit surprised. I don't know what I thought normal people do in the summer or what they think of, you know, the summer. But Rob you weren't a bit oh is that it? 	
rob	Yeah. Well yeah sort of especially the kids thing I mean surely your kids aren't just for summer they're for all year round aren't they I would have thought, presumably? So yeah the woman who was talking about, "Oh I can't do very much in summer because I've got kids" so that means you can do loads in the winter does it? Or does it mean you can't do anything the entire year round? Summer to me is about endless games of football and actually being able to use pub beer gardens, and being able to wear flip-flops on the streets of London I love all those things.	
damon	BBQs. I mean I love BBQs.	
rob	I hate BBQs though because the Brits are so bad at it. We're the worst Bar-B-Q nation on earth seriously. 	
damon	And can you put a disability spin on that? 	
emma	Well I was sort of saying why do you hate BBQs Damon? 	
damon	I hate them because there's no way you're going to get me cooking in front of those white hot coals no. 	
liz	And those pointed implements. 	
damon	Well I can deal with those.	
emma	But it's great that it's all finger food but it's a buffet which is the other issue, all the food's spread out everywhere and there's bones to deal with and sauce and sticky.	
rob	And sticks. 	
emma	Ah poor us. 	
rob	I haven't burnt at all this summer. As an albino to say that with it now being August I think I've done really, really well and I've been to a lot of hot places over the last few months and I haven't burnt at all apart from one tiny little bit on my wrist when I was in Puerto Rico, that's it. My greatest summer ever. 	
dan	Do you put cream on? 	
rob	Oh yeah like factor 50 I put it on like war paint because it is like going into battle, it's albino versus sun. I love the sun but the sun hates me so it's really difficult because I adore being out in the heat. But as long as I'm slathering on factor 50 then I'm okay. 	
liz	And I didn't want to say anything because I thought you were a bit red. 	
rob	I am a little bit, come on it's not burnt though is it? 	
liz	I don't know the difference. 	
rob 	Oh shut up!	
damon	What is it then if it's not burnt?	
rob	Just look healthy like I've been in the sun, in a healthy way. Not blisters. And at one time my nose turned into one giant black scar when I was living in South Africa. 	
emma	But I was going to say I think you're growing up, Rob, I think you're getting sensible. 	
rob	Maybe I am yeah. 	
emma	Because you did used to get burnt a lot didn't you?	
rob	Yeah because I was an idiot I couldn't be bothered and also I found sun block a bit expensive like I could buy a glass of wine with that, so I didn't buy the sun block. 	
damon	But for you that's skin cancer waiting to happen. 	
rob	I know. Well I think I've got away with it. Actually what do melanomas look like?	
damon	Why? 	
rob	Because I've got something on my arm which I think might be but...	
damon	Why not show it to Liz?	
liz	It's becoming like Embarrassing Bodies of the radio. My goodness. Come on show Dr. Liz your problems. 	
rob	No you don't want to see. 	
liz	We're not going down there. Not that route please no. 
[Jingle: 
Liz:	There wouldn't be an Ouch Talk Show without you, 	the listener. 
Rob: 	Yes you guys are our inspiration. We love you.
Liz: 	So whether there's something you think we should be 	talking about, a comment you're itching to make on a 	previous discussion or if you have an inexplicable 	urge to play one of our quizzes
Rob: 	Then drop us a line at Ouch@bbc.co.uk ]	
rob	On the line, via Skype, we've got our unsigned artist for this show, from the band Olypsis it's Pidgie. Hello Pidgie. 	
Pidgie	Good morning. 	
rob	Tell us a little bit about your band then and the music?	
Pidgie	Well it's called Olypsis. We play blues, rock, some pop, I'm more of a pop writer, in that genre. I've been a musician my whole life also. 	
rob	And at the risk of asking the most unoriginal question in music journalism why is the band called what it is? Why Olypsis?	
Pidgie	That's a crazy story. 	
rob	Oh good, go on what is it then?	
Pidgie	It was a very long time ago my boyfriend, Vinny, who started the band, it kind of the partying college stage of when you start partying too much and you start going, "Oh that's a weird circle and the earth is in an elliptical pattern" and they were being very philosophical. So we said Olypsis and that was the name he stuck with a long time. 	
liz	Is Olypsis touring, are you making records, are you a busy band? 	
Pidgie	We're getting busy. We're touring the New England area, Boston we played the Hard Rock Cafe which is a major venue. We have a three song demo one of them called, 'What a price to pay' which you'll hear in a few moments. We're making an album, you know, a full CD. September 24 we go into the studio. We also have a store where things are available. You can download ringtones from our music as well. 	
rob	So we're going to hear a little bit of Olypsis in a moment. But first, Pidgie, we'd like to fire some quick fire questions at you. Is that okay? 	
Pidgie	It's perfect. 	
rob	Okay, right. Liz is going to start you off.	
liz	Bar-B-Q or bistro? 	
Pidgie	Bar-B-Q.	
rob	The Seychelles or Iceland?	
Pidgie	The what or Iceland? 	
rob	The Seychelles.	
Pidgie	Sea shells?	
rob	Yeah or Iceland. 	
Pidgie	Sea shells.	
rob	I think Pidgie knew they were islands. If I could duet with anyone in the world ever it would be...?	
Pidgie	If I could duet?	
rob	Yeah.	
Pidgie	Steven Tyler from Aerosmith. 	
liz	If I could choose to have another disability it would be...?	
Pidgie	Oh my goodness. 	
liz	Come on you must have a favourite. 	
Pidgie	My favourite disability, that's hilarious.	
rob	Clock's ticking, Pidgie, quick, quick, quick.	
Pidgie	A limp!	
rob	My favourite book is...?	
Pidgie	Gone with the Wind. 	
liz	Peace or noise? 	
Pidgie	Peace. 	
rob	Kitten or puppy?	
Pidgie	Oh puppy, puppy, puppy.	
liz	Broccoli or nachos? 	
Pidgie	Nachos. 	
rob	Mac or PC?	
Pidgie	PC.	
liz	People who like Olypsis also like...?	
Pidgie	Aerosmith. 	
liz	Okay. 	
rob	Just Aerosmith?	
liz	Anyone else?	
Pidgie	The Rolling Stones.	
rob	Well we're hear in a moment won't we?	
liz	We're going to hear in a bit. And so tell us, Pidgie, how can we find out more information about you? 	
Pidgie	Okay. You can go to www.facebook.com/olypsys. There are two 'y's in Olypsis. 	
rob	So hold it right there, we're going to get you to introduce the track we're going to play in a few seconds. But first of all let's roll the credits because that's the end of the show. So thanks ever so much to the team; Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey. Studio manager, Gill Drabble and producer Damon Rose.	
liz	We will be back in early September until then goodbye and cue Pidgie. 	
pidgie	Okay. I'd like to introduce this song called 'What A Price To Pay'. I've written it, it's performed by Olypsis, produced by Dave Westner and Vincent Rinaldi and here it goes. 
[Playing music]