Ouch Talk Show #102 November 2013
bbc.co.uk/ouch

Presented by Rob Crossan 

Rob	It’s Ouch edition 102 for November 2013 and if you’re a first time listener then we’re a podcast that does disability a little differently. I’m Rob and boy is it nice to see your lovely face. We’ll be looking to Jonny Benjamin a 26 year old who has been posting videos to YouTube about his depression and the voices he hears. Why does he choose to share so much on the internet? We’ll be asking him that and more in 20 minutes. 
Now wearable technology seems to be the next big digital thing, as I accurately call it, so how will innovations like Google Glass and others help disabled people. We’ll be gazing into the short-term future to see what’s coming our way and if our little worlds will be significantly enhanced because of it. And music comes from one of our favourite learning disability bands, Fish Police. And in a few short seconds you can meet the two guests who are going to help us rifle through some recent news, fluff and detritus. We’re not, not on the proper radio for nothing you know! Stay tuned. 
[Jingle: Ouch disability talk from the BBC with Rob Crossan and Kate Monaghan.]
Except of course Kate Monaghan it is my sad and sombre duty to inform you is not dead just slightly ill. However, I do have two faithful hounds with me to go through the first part of the show. So it’s my glorious duty to announce the presence right here in the studio 80A of Broadcasting House in London of Simon Minty and Tim Renkow, hello to you both. 	
simon	Hi, Rob. 	
rob	Scholars of comedy you both are. And I, first of all, I want you just to help me a little bit with something as I’m having  a minor existential crisis in the sense of why am I here? Why do we do this show? Disability why? It’s a salient point I feel. And I’ve just come up with a couple of questions basically about the whole oeuvre of disability and I’m going to ask these questions to every single guest that comes on the show from now on. And essentially to eventually I get the right and true answer to the meaning of life. So the first one, is this a good question: do you think disability is just a state of mind? Is that even answerable? Very quickly first thing that comes to your mind.	
simon	Half of it yeah, not all of it. 	
rob	Would you rather have your current disability for the rest of your life or swap it for a year’s worth of not being able to move in a hospital bed and why? Validity – zero? I’m starting to think these questions are appalling. 	
simon	The sort of swapping your impairment idea is quite an interesting one. Is this coming from where you are at the moment? These questions are ones you are…	
rob	Well sort of.	
simon	…asking yourself. 	
rob	Yeah, sort of yes, I must say. Alright, let’s go through this quickly. My other kind of existential angst question is: what dates would you say disabled people will gain full equality, when? Can we actually answer that on a quantitative basis?	
tim	No.	
rob	As in July 2nd 2024?	
tim	I think it’s a silly question because I think it’s kind of built into disability that we’ll never have equal… Like equality would be weird because if it was total equal for disabled people it wouldn’t then be equal for non-disabled people and thus would never be equal.	
rob	So in that sense non-disability would actually become a disability?	
tim	Yeah and then it would then be equal again.	
rob	That’s made my brain hurt quite a lot. But let’s go back to the first point – it’s silly. Did you acquiesce with this, Simon?	
simon	Yes I do I kind of I think probably you’re looking at a very narrow definition of what equality might mean. 	
tim	Yeah.	
simon	And that’s where Tim’s saying well what is it broader than that then that starts to get more interesting.	
rob	I’m looking for a killer question here. I really don’t think I’ve nailed it. Alright, one more – which is my personal favourite: would your life be better if you weren’t disabled? I think that’s a good question because ultimately I think a lot of people would grudgingly say, “You know what, yes it would it would be loads better.” Can I winkle this fact out of people?	
simon	Well the problem is that’s kind of saying do you like who you are? 	
rob	Exactly that’s the whole point, exactly. It’s about people’s self-esteem.	
tim	I don’t think it’s a valid question because it’s not like I wouldn’t be the same person if I wasn’t disabled. 	
rob	Yeah but you might be a better person.	
tim	But I wouldn’t be the same person. 	
rob	Okay.	
simon	And Tim and I this is how we came out. 	
tim	I’d lose so much of my material.	
simon	Comedians always worry about losing material by a cure. 	
rob	Yeah. You would go down to like a solid five minutes of material I suppose yeah. That makes sense. And also I wouldn’t have this to do one day a month either. 	
simon	If I was not disabled aren’t there times that I like myself more and sometimes I don’t. And other things even without a disability I’d like to change about myself. So I don’t know is that not good for everybody then?	
rob	The puzzle is endless and an intensely difficult one. So listeners will already know, Simon, if you’re ardent fans of this programme so I’m just going to turn to Tim for a moment. Let my physically turn to the other side of the table. Now Tim you’re a stand-up comedian and you were at The Edinburgh Fringe this summer, also featured in Fresh From The Fringe on Radio 4, here’s a quick clip so listeners can hear your schick.
[Playing clip: So I know what you're thinking and that is he’s insanely offensive. I’m from the deep south and the crazy people always come up to me and talk about Jesus which gets so boring. It’s gets since, you know, you don’t have Jesus, it means you crazy people get creative. I had two of them come up to me and go, “Excuse me, Sir, do you have cerebral palsy?” And I went, “Yeah I do.” And she goes, “Right my brother had that. He died from it.” And then she just stopped talking. That was the end of the conversation.]
So this happens quite a lot then, Tim, you’re approached by Christians but is this mostly when you're in the States or does this happen in Britain too?	
tim	Mostly in the States. I had one lady that she came up trying to comfort me and her opening line was, “Excuse me, do you have MS?” And I went, “No I don’t” and that kind of messed her up. So she panicked and just left. Before she left she goes on…	
rob	But what do they want to do? How do they come across? 	
tim	I think it’s because of the joke I have about it which is…	
rob	Go on, just read your material.	
tim	I think also they feel that, which they are correct, they feel that  because of the disability, I have like a legitimacy for hating god. that’s what they always say.	
rob	Oh I see they assume you’re going to be a rampant atheist because of your condition.	
tim	Which I am but it’s not because of my condition. It’s because I’m an anarchist which is different. 	
rob	And there are so many comedians with cerebral palsy: listing a few there’s Josh Blue, there’s Laurence Clark, there’s Francesca Martinez, Masoon Zayid, there’s Jack Caroll – if you don’t know him he’s the 14 year old finalist on this year’s Britain’s Got Talent. 	
tim	I rode down in the elevator with him. 	
rob	You did? 	
tim	He has a very nice walker.	
rob	A great walker. With a certain sort of show-biz panache. 	
tim	Yeah. It has a seat attached. I really want his walker.	
rob	He’s a very nice walker. 	
tim	He’s funny too but his walker is unbelievable. 	
rob	Is there a bit of walk envy here? 	
tim	I think so. 	
rob	Yeah, huge. And you also might remember – I’m just going to continue this slightly dull list that my producer is forcing me to read – Australian Steady Eddie, Ted Shiress, Lost Voice Guy. Right done that. So many CP-ers have real issues communicating I suppose so I’m just wondering, Tim, why would you throw yourself on the line in front of a comedy audience?	
tim	I can only speak for me because I can’t do voices. It was always just the only thing I was good at really.	
rob	And have you ever had experiences where people have literally said, “Pardon, can you say that again mate?” Have you had heckles like that from audiences?	
tim	No. The worst heckle usually is people don’t because that just makes you seem like a joke in front of it. So I’ve had people normally if they’re going to do stuff like that come up to you after the show and tell you. Like I have one guy…	
rob	So you get more sort of one-to-one criticism rather than mass abuse?	
tim	I had one guy come up to me after the show and tell me, “You were funny but I was too uncomfortable to laugh.” It’s like why would you tell me that? What good is that? How am I going to use that information? 	
rob	And this is something I feel a lot of people with disability suffer. 	
tim	When they do it to me I always just make them buy me the most expensive drink in the pub.	
rob	Exactly, please just take it out on alcohol. Right. Now buses, that was a good link wasn’t it – that was a really seamless seg into the next bit of news. So last month we mentioned how Doug Pauley won an 18 month legal battle against First Buses in Yorkshire. A mum with a baby in a pushchair refused to vacate the wheelchair space in case it woke her child and the driver refused to insist that she move. Now Doug won over £5,000 compensation because the judge ruled that it was in breach of the 2010 Equality Act. Now the news this month is that the bus company is going to appeal this decision and disability groups are rather surprised and upset about it. So let’s pass this over to Simon now. Why do disabled people trump mums with buggies, shouldn’t it be just first come first served? 	
simon	I got really ratty when I read this story. I mean it’s back up on the BBC website because of the right to appeal. As the judge said the government and our country has chosen to protect disabled peoples’ rights, there is no protection for parents with buggies; that is not part of the law. And I think the other bit is the will to…	
rob	So the only reason is not actually because of any sort of moral reason or anything like that it’s purely because there’s a law in place for disabled people and there isn’t a law in place for mothers, that’s it?	
simon	I found that when the legislation came in, DDA or Disability Discrimination Act turning to the Equality Act, we all became a lot more moral. The problem is if you rely on that kind-heartedness then it might not always come and even in this case. So no the point was it was taken to a court so obviously the judge or the tribunal chair’s got to say, “I’m basing this on what the law of the land is” that’s the whole point. But Mumsnet, which is the sort of network for parents and particularly mothers obviously, they agreed with this, they said we should give this up for a wheelchair user. So there’s not really a lot of debate it’s just that the buses were not enforcing a policy. 
And I know, well Tim may know it as well, travelling in San Francisco, Washington DC, Hong Kong, I was even on Eurostar recently and the conductor or the guy who let me on into the wheelchair spot people were moaning saying, “I want to put my bags there” “I want to put my luggage there” and he said, “I’m sorry this is for a wheelchair user.” So my bit is if there’s no…the wheelchair user doesn’t have anywhere else to sit and if they’re trying to encourage everybody to get back on public transport there’s nothing more unsettling to get on and think you’ve got nowhere to be. 	
rob	And also face the hostility of other people who want to put their tote bag where your wheelchair or crutches or whatever happen to be. 	
simon	One of the nicest feelings I get is going on public transport, particularly when I’m abroad in San Francisco is one, and then you get on and there’s a guy with a bike or I don’t know maybe a mum with a pushchair and they look at you see you come on, they smile and they move out of the way and you go, “Thank you very much” and maybe you squeeze up a little bit so they can share it but it’s just polite and lovely.	
rob	What about you, Tim, do you think it should be first come, first served?	
tim	I always give up first come first served for a baby because I feel I’m physically stronger than a baby and I can wait for the next bus.	
rob	This is interesting. So you’re happy to do that?	
tim	Yeah. That being said if the baby can fold up the buggy, you need to fold up your buggy because it’s polite.	
rob	But are mothers ever grateful for your little sacrifice?	
tim	No. Mothers are a word I can’t use on BBC. Some of them get it. But that means I’m fine on the bus and a baby comes on the baby’s out of luck unless it’s raining I might get off if it’s a cold day.	
rob	So Simon this is what it boils down to – is it hurling down outside or not? In San Francisco and Hong Kong probably less likely than Leeds.	
simon	You’re right, although they can get very heavy rain but I take your point. This is my bit because I don’t know why I was quite so angry I thought maybe I’m missing something here, they did have the policy of first come first served, but do you use a wheelchair, Tim, I mean…	
tim	I do yeah.	
simon	So you have only one option and that…	
tim	Yeah.	
simon	Okay.	
tim	I’m also, I didn’t realise it was the law. If it’s the law you can’t make an exception because that…	
rob	Look how the law has destroyed Tim’s sense of benevolence and kindness.	
tim	Personally you should but like the judge can’t make an exception.	
simon	What happens if six buses came along and every single one of them the wheelchair spot’s taken because of a parent and her buggy, do you keep saying, “Fair enough I’ll wait, I’ll wait, I’ll wait?”	
tim	Yeah. 	
rob	I’d just move somewhere with less kids. 	
simon	You’re a better man than me.	
rob	He is isn’t he? I’m very impressed.	
simon	I’m quite up to sort of going on and saying, “Look let’s see how we can negotiate this and share it.” 	
rob	What – I give you money to leave? Is this what you’re thinking?	
simon	No, no, no. I still think a parent with a buggy and the law says, also the judge said it does inconvenience them, we know that. But I think there is a negotiation where you sort of say, “How can we squeeze in.” I don’t want to be…	
tim	The thing is if you can squeeze in…	
simon	Right. 	
tim	I think it’s the mother’s duty to try and squeeze in as hard as she can. The excuse, “I’m going to wake my baby up” is not a valid excuse.	
simon	I think always the bit for me is is there another alternative for the wheelchair user, the disabled person,  to go to. And if there is no alternative, there’s only one spot on the bus, there’s only one loo, that’s when I think we should take priority. That’s the distinction.	
rob	And is the mother capable of actually folding up the buggy which in 99 out of 100 cases you would assume yes she could actually.	
simon	Yes. 	
rob	So anyway this could go on for ages but we’re going to move on to the final section of this little part of the show. Now 27 year old blind singer, Andrea Begley, she was the surprise winner of BBC1’s The Voice UK in June. So flash forward for four months and ladies and gentlemen she’s brought out not only her first album but also an autobiography; an autobiography at 27. Make of that what you will! Now autobiographies often have rather cheesy pun-laden titles and hers is no different. It’s available from all good, bad and mediocre bookshops right now and it’s called – wait for it – ‘I Didn’t See That Coming’. Also out last month, I should also point out was a Werewolf: My Story by David, the Werewolf Were. Slightly better-ish, a little bit of effort went into that. 
But anyway before you two depart, I’ve devised a fun quiz for you both. I’m going to read out some autobiography titles written by disabled celebs and you have got to tell me who you think wrote them and the clues, and they’re very obvious clues are in the titles. Is this understood? Present, correct? 	
simon	Okay.	
rob	Excellent. Who do you think wrote ‘My Brief History’?	
simon	I know. 	
rob	Go on. 	
simon	Stephen Hawking. 	
rob	Boom! He’s got it. Next one. Who do you think wrote ‘Seize the Day’?	
tim	Somebody with seizures. It needs to be epilepsy.	
rob	You’re right. That’s actually thinking a little bit too cleverly though because it was actually Tanni Grey Thompson. 	
simon	Of course it is of course it’s Tanni. 	
rob	Now who wrote ‘Lucky Man’ which was followed up with ‘Always Looking Up’ and ‘A Funny Thing Happened to Me on the Way to the Future’? 	
simon	Michael F Fox.	
rob	He’s there. The man Minty. Okay. We’ve got four more. Who do you think wrote ‘Tongue Tied (Subnormality in the Seventies)’? 	
simon	Joey Deacon.	
rob	You are blitzing! He’s on five. Joey Deacon.	
simon 	There are quite a lot of UK people here, yeah sorry Tim.	
rob	Yeah sorry Tim. I think if you have very long memories you may remember Joey Deacon was on the children’s TV show, Blue Peter, back in the seventies. He was kind of wheeled out as a man with cerebral palsy and he was stared at by children in a way that probably wouldn’t be considered acceptable today.	
tim	I saw him a documentary on him. 	
rob	On Joey – is he still alive, is he still going?	
simon	I don’t know. 	
tim	The documentary…	
rob	No he died in 1981 which just proves how out of date I am. Right, three more. And one of them I think Tim’s going to get but probably not this next one. 	
tim	I doubt it. 	
rob	Who wrote ‘On a Clear Day’?	
simon	I think it’s vision.	
rob	Yes you are right. 	
simon	Stevie Wonder. 	
rob	No, no. This is a Brit. Beard, politician. 	
simon	David Blunkett. 	
rob	Got it. Okay, right this is one that I’m really hoping you're going to get, Tim. Who wrote ‘Wishful Drinking’? 	
tim	Sounds like something I would like. 	
rob	She played Princess Leia. 	
tim	Carrie Underwood?	
rob	Underwood. Look you did say Carrie right? 	
tim	Yeah. 	
rob	Yeah Carrie Fisher.	
tim	I’m not good with names. 	
simon	I thought she was ‘Postcards From the Edge’. 	
rob	Is that another one that she’s written? 	
simon	Yeah that was a really famous one people kind of liked that.	
rob	In the current autobiography market if you’re over 30 you’ve probably written about seven autobiographies by now. This one was written in 2009 Wishful Drinking she has, as you may already know, manic depression; she’s a strong advocate of ECT which she has benefitted from and as the title suggests if an alcoholic. And the very final one published in 1999 – this is a little bit of an incestuous option I must say within the BBC – who wrote ‘See it My Way’?	
simon	Peter White. 	
rob	Peter White, the beloved presenter of BBC Radio 4’s In Touch programme. Tim, you sucked, but on the other hand you are American. Simon you’re a goody two shoes; you did incredibly well there. So I would like to thank you both hugely for being on the show with me today, especially with me here on my own. Tweet us at bbcouch or email ouch@bbc.co.uk. Maybe you want to be on a future show or think we should know about something. We’re also looking for Ouch correspondents as well, almost certainly no money in it, but we’d like to hear from you. Do you have an area of interest in the disability field that we could – well how can I put this – take advantage of? I quite like to think of a disability travel correspondent we could have, or maybe a disability gig correspondent or whatever. So if this appeals, if this floats your boat or lights your ring then do get in touch now at ouch@bbc.co.uk and thank you very, very much to Simon Minty and Tim Renkow.
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability. I’d put myself on a dating site once and I didn’t mention that I had a disability and I got loads and loads of emails asking for dates and stuff. Obviously I had to tell them I had a disability and then it was like no more emails. I put myself on as having a disability and I just didn’t get any emails so I think it is very image orientated. BBC.co.uk/ouch.]
Do you remember this? 
[Playing clip]
Or this: 
[Playing music]
Well now there’s this.
[Playing music]
It’s The Fish Police and they’re back with the Sabrin (My Very Last Day) which you can hear in full at the end of this show. We’ve got Jonny Benjamin with us, he’s on the line from Salford. Hello, Jonny.	
jonny	Hiya.	
rob	Now 26 year old Jonny Benjamin, this is to tell a little bit about you before we crack on with the conversation. Now Jonny, for the benefit of listeners, makes YouTube videos about living with mental illness; in his case it’s schizoaffective disorder – a mix between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. The videos are much talked about and much shared. Apparently Stephen Fry retweeted one of the links very, very recently. It’s led to an award from the charity Rethink to acknowledge his positive contribution. You also may have seen Jonny earlier this year on BBC3 fronting a programme in the Mad World season. So, Jonny, I’m going to play a clip of one of your videos in a second but firstly, did I explain schizoaffective disorder adequately or is there something or anything you want to add to that?	
jonny	Yeah you explained it adequately. I think for me I didn’t have the bipolar as such I just had the depression. Other people get the highs and the lows that come with bipolar but for me it was just always lows. So for me it’s schizoaffective disorder in terms of schizophrenia and depression I think. 	
rob	So here’s a clip from one of your videos. This is one of your more recent ones I think and in it you’re explaining the voices that you hear. 
[Playing clip: Sometimes I get intrusive thoughts. ‘Throw the glass of water, Jonny. Throw the glass of water in his face. Imagine the water all over his face. Pick it up. Pick up the glass now. Pick up the glass of water. Pick up the glass, Jonny and throw it in his face. Come on, Jonny, throw the glass of water in his face. (Multiple voices talking at once). Do it, do it. Pick up the glass of water. Come on, come on. Throw it in his face. Pick up the glass of water. Imagine the water all over his face. You can do it, Jonny. Pick it up. Do it. Pick up the glass.]
Tell us about these voices, Jonny, who are these people? Do you have a relationship with them? Who are they?	
jonny	Well I know now that they’re just my voices inside my head. Before I was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder I thought they were an external voice. I actually thought it was… First of all I thought it was an angel that was talking to me. And then I thought it was the devil that was talking to me. 	
rob	And this started when, when you were very young or a teenager? 	
jonny	When I was ten I started hearing a voice for the first time. 	
rob	And how did you react when it first began; was it fear? 	
jonny	No actually because it was an angel I actually quite liked it being there because I was quite religious at the time, I come from a Jewish background and I went to a Jewish school. And I thought I was blessed to have this angel in my head. 	
rob	It doesn’t seem like you questioned it though, it seems like you were quite accepting of it being there.	
jonny	Well I thought that everyone heard this voice in their head. I just thought it was natural it was part of being human. So to find out that I was actually wrong and that actually it was considered an illness to have a voice in your head was very strange to me. I’ve kind of got used to it over the years. I don’t mind it being there so much. It doesn’t overwhelm me like it used to. When it got really bad when I started hearing this devil it was very controlling. And now I feel I’m in control, to an extent, of the voice.	
rob	A lot of approaches to schizophrenia suggest that people who have the condition should speak back to them or form a friendship of sorts. Is that what you’ve tried to do?	
jonny	Kind of. I use something called Mindfulness, that’s really helped me. And that’s all about getting into your body; doing things like yoga and meditation and really getting into your body and remembering that your mind and your body are connected. So when I start hearing voices and they overwhelm me I just go into my body and maybe focus on something like the soles of my feet so that disconnects so much from what I’m hearing in my head. It does require practise but it’s definitely worth it I’d say. 	
rob	So tell me about an average day then, what about today since before you began speaking to me, tell me what went through… Any voices this morning?	
jonny	Yeah I was in work this morning and I went to Starbucks with a colleague and as soon as I got given my cup of tea I heard something in my head say throw that over the person sitting there. And then walking around with my tea it was just constant like, “Throw it over them. Throw it over that person there.” 	
rob	I would really like you during the course of the conversation we’re having it, if you don’t mind, I’d really like you if you do start hearing voices while we’re talking.	
jonny	Sure.	
rob	Do feel free to interrupt me and tell me, if you’re comfortable with that, because I’d really like to know how it feels.	
jonny	Yeah I mean there’s always something there, especially when I’m doing something like this, I always hear something saying, “You’re not good enough” or “You’re wasting that person’s time”. I don’t know if we all get that but I certainly get that. 	
rob	Are you getting that right at this very second?	
jonny	Um, not right at this very second but I have heard it since we’ve been talking. It’s quite interesting I read an interview with Anthony Hopkins, or Sir Anthony Hopkins, and he also hears this voice that says to him, “You’re not good enough” and he’s playing something like Macbeth and he’s on stage in front of hundreds of people and this voice in his head is saying, “You’re not good enough. You can’t do this. You can’t do Shakespeare.” And I found that fascinating when I read that. And it comforted me in a way because I always hear this voice saying I’m not good enough or what I’m saying is rubbish.	
rob	Well we certainly think that you’re worth talking to, I should definitely point that out. 	
jonny	I kind of think of my mind as having Tourette’s almost because a lot of the things that come into my head they’re not really me – this is going to sound really kind of cheesy – but it’s not who I am kind of in my heart because I think I’m a good person. And so yeah I’ve had some ridiculous thoughts – pushing prams down stairs you know when you’re going down escalators to the tube or something if there’s a pram there it’s always in my head going, “Push that pram down” or something and that’s not me. It’s not me at all.  	
rob	But have there been any moments since you’ve had it which I guess would be about 15 years since you’ve acted upon it and you’ve lost control and you have thrown a cup of water in someone’s face; has that often happened?	
jonny	No I haven’t, not yet. Which is why something like the meditation, the yoga is so important. If I didn’t do those things then gosh I don’t know I think I would be very tempted to. Because it’s so overwhelming at times and it feels like there’s nothing else around you, it’s just what’s in your head that’s taking place.	
rob	And this is the thing I mean so many people have a fear, shall we say, of so many sorts of disabilities; people are sometimes are uncomfortable about being with someone in a wheelchair, they’re scared of what they could say and what they could do wrong. But schizophrenia seems to have particularly pejorative connotations. Is this something that is an issue to you that you feel that people are going to be scared of you?	
jonny	To be honest with you, I’m quite lucky I haven’t really encountered too much stigma because I’m so open and people are quite open with me. I’m usually quite honest especially with things like paranoia. Someone that I’m really close to I’ll be able to tell them if I’m struggling with paranoia. And they don’t always understand it but they can at least show support and empathy.	
rob	We’ve got another clip now which we’re going to listen to. These are very, very engaging and quite gripping videos. Have a listen to this. 
[Playing clip: I’ve been to the cinema to see the film The Truman Show with Jim Carrey. In the film Jim Carrey’s character is watched my cameras all around. Nothing in his life is real, everyone’s an actor and every scenario is fabricated by a director. He’s watched my millions of people across the world and he’s the only one that doesn’t know it. When we came out the cinema my friend said to me, “Well maybe that could be you but you wouldn’t know it.” And I began to really dwell on this and I thought well it could be happening to me but I just would have no idea.]
The Truman Show came out in 1998 so that would have made you 11 or 12 years old when it came out. 	
jonny	Yeah. 	
rob	Extremely young is this something that you’re still thinking about at the moment that perhaps The Truman Show is occurring to you? 	
jonny	No I think because I went into hospital when I was 20 and that was the point when I realised that I’d been in this kind of delusion for the past ten years, and when the psychiatrist I saw explained to me that it was all in my head that was a major kind of awakening for me. And then I realised that I had I’d been in this delusion. So that doesn’t occur for me anymore that whole perception that I’m in my own version of The Truman Show.	
rob	But you’re very, very far from being alone in this; I read a magazine article a couple of months ago about in a America it’s now a medically recognised condition called The Truman Show condition.	
jonny	Yes that’s right. 	
rob	Have you ever met anybody else who shares this unpleasant fantasy based on this film?	
jonny	No I haven’t actually, I haven’t. I’ve heard lots of stories particularly in America. There was someone that believed that 9/11 had been fabricated and so he travelled across the states and he went to New York just to prove to himself that 9/11 was fabricated. And he turned up at where the Twin Towers was…	
rob	At Ground Zero.	
jonny	Ground Zero yeah and suddenly he realised that he was in a kind of delusion. It must have been a massive shock to him. And then this is quite common, there’s been other things. Someone in America went to the immigration office and said something like, “You need to help me get out of here because I’m trapped in the US. I want to get away from the cameras” people out there are walking around believing they’re part of this reality show and it’s quite – amazing is the wrong word – but it’s quite amazing the impact that a film like The Truman Show has had on people. I think something like X Factor for me I need to kind of limit how much I watch something like X Factor because it can make me delusional and think: oh I can maybe be a singer, or I can get this record deal. And with all these reality shows out there I need to be careful. I think anyone with schizophrenia needs to be careful about how much they watch these things. I know lots of people with schizophrenia who say that they feel that they’re getting the messages from things they watch on TV, particularly from reality shows, particularly like X Factor where you can get this record deal and you can… I see a lot of young people especially on things like Twitter and social media in general really kind of buying into this whole thing of becoming famous instantly. I see a lot of them being quite delusional and that’s quite worrying.	
rob	I mean the idea obviously is that the contestants who go on the X Factor obviously want the kind of fame that you describe though aren’t they? 	
jonny	Yeah, no absolutely but that’s kind of worrying in itself. I just see a lot of young people kind of losing their own identity; not just young people but people of all ages kind of losing their identity and wanting to become something they’re not, and I suppose I can relate to that because I thought I was something that I wasn’t when I was on this kind of whole version of The Truman Show. 	
rob	You’re extremely open about this topic. Is it a good idea sharing like this, I’m thinking really about how your job prospects can be affected by the things that you’ve said on Facebook, your videos on YouTube; some people may want to avoid you or perhaps not give you a job, I mean is this something that concerns you? 	
jonny	It doesn’t concern me too much. I’d rather be open about my mental health than hide it away. Because I suffered so much growing up because I kept everything silent, I could never go through that again. I feel like I have to be open and honest now just for my own health really. When it comes to something like a job situation I am reluctant to disclose my mental health issues but I think it’s beneficial that I do, to be honest, so that people are aware.	
rob	How has employment been for you? 	
jonny	It’s been mixed. 	
rob	I know you used to work at Harrod’s for a while was that a particular bad experience?	
jonny	Yeah it was a bad experience.	
rob	Tell me about that. 	
jonny	I ended up walking out after a week because I couldn’t handle it.	
rob	What couldn’t you handle?	
jonny	It was very stressful and very competitive amongst staff. I really struggled with learning everything so quickly and the paranoia…	
rob	And did this trigger voices to become more and more loud and overwhelming?	
jonny	Yeah and paranoia and things like that. So I literally only spent a week there and I just walked out one day, one afternoon when it was just all too much. So I need to be really careful about how much stress I take on in my work. 	
rob	Is that typical though. I mean you’ve had jobs where you’ve lasted more than a week I’m presuming?	
jonny	Yeah, no I have, I have. And I try and deal with stress. I mean every job comes with stress but I try and manage it to an extent but it’s really hard and I have to do things like mindfulness and meditation and other things like that to keep on top of my stress levels and my mental health.	
rob	So do you disclose your mental health condition when you’re applying for jobs?	
jonny	I haven’t done, no, I haven’t actually just because I just don’t want the judgement really. You know the job market’s so tough as it is that I don’t want to limit what people think that I can do.	
rob	So when you said in your personal life you haven’t really had that much in the way of people being scared of you or had any bizarre reactions. But in the field of employment it seems as if it’s much tougher.	
jonny	Well I think so I think it is because people will probably think about that person’s more likely to take time off for being sick. It’s very different when it comes to employment I think; much different to a kind of social situation. You’re being judged aren’t you all the time in employment. Whereas when you're with your friends they know you and they know what to expect and they don’t judge you so much.	
rob	What about if someone else listening to this is experiencing anything like you’ve been through in the last 10/15 years what should they do right now to help themselves?	
jonny	Well I mean first of all if they’ve never disclosed it to anyone I’d say talk to someone about what you're going through, don’t keep it to yourself. Whether that be a friend or a family member or someone professional such as a GP I think it’s so important to talk to someone about it and not keep it all to yourself. Also to do other things such as writing maybe because it can be so overwhelming and intense just keeping it all inside. There’s other kind of mental health charities out there such as Mind or maybe The Samaritans, lots of people out there who are willing to listen and support you basically so you’re not alone. 	
rob	I really appreciate your honesty and your openness, thank you so much for speaking to us today, Jonny. We’ve got links to your YouTube page and articles about you on your blog bbc.co.uk/ouch. And if this has rung bells with you or you’d like to tell us about your own experiences or any projects you’re involved with then you can tweet us at bbcouch you can find us on Facebook or you can email us at ouch@bbc.co.uk. Once again, Jonny, thank you very much. 	
jonny	Thank you. 
[Jingle: Who is Rob Crossan? Well being a kid and having albinism I rather enjoyed it. I was always quite a forthright, cocky little child who teachers, on the whole, utterly loathed. I really liked the fact that being an albino first of all got me out of loads of trouble, and believe me there were plenty of times when I blamed my behaviour on the fact that "I'm upset about my albinism" and I was that emotionally manipulative at about the age of seven which really doesn't paint me in a very good light at all. But it did get me out of lots of trouble. And it also got me loads of attention and I loved the attention of it and I was quite happy to turn it on its head and do all the things that people didn't expect me to do. I was always given the choice of not playing sports, but I really enjoyed it. I just did whatever the hell I wanted to do; cycling around dark country lanes outside of Ellesmere Port as a kid with no bike lights, no helmets and just not being able to see a thing. I'm really grateful to my parents, they could have mollycoddled me but they were quite happy to let me go out into the world and figure out for myself what I could and couldn't do. 
The Ouch Talk Show.] 	
rob	On the line from our studio in Coventry we’ve got Robin Christopherson. Hello Robin.	
robin	Hello there. 	
rob	Hello. Now you’re head of Inclusion AbilityNet and you are, I take it, a huge advocate of technology?	
robin	I am. Yes head of Digital Inclusion. And AbilityNet, for people who aren’t aware, is the UK’s leading expert organisation on all things technology and disability which is quite easy to say because we’re the only organisation that is truly pan-disability, all kinds of disability impairments including RSI and dyslexia and that sort of thing and all kinds of technology. 	
rob	You stand alone. And with me making noises in the background we’ve dragged in Emma Tracey, doyen of this show. Hello Emma.	
emma	Hello.	
rob	And Tim and Simon are still with us as well. Hello to you both. Now they’re all back to keep me company so today we’re going to talk about where we are with technology that can help people with disabilities and what’s just around the corner. And really just trying to find a date on this because there’s always these ideas floating around and I’d really just like to get something a little bit more concrete. So firstly to everyone gathered around the table here with me; when thinking about your disability and overcoming problems that other people don’t have is technology or assistive technology a big part of your life? Let’s just take this one by one, so Tim – big, medium, tiny?	
tim	I’d say medium. 	
rob	Medium. Emma?	
Emma	Huge. 	
rob	Colossal. And Simon? 	
simon	Medium at the moment. 	
rob	Medium okay. So, Robin, status update then; how far have we come in the last ten years or so? 	
robin	Well going back to sort of ‘80s where the advent of the PC came along and really opened doors for so many people, particularly people with disabilities. I owe my education to the fact that there was technology around. I can’t see myself at all and so I rely on speech output and braille. But then a couple of years ago or sort of five or six years ago now, particularly with the iPhone the smart phone revolution was as significant, if not more so, because it took the power of computing and it made it mobile. It put it in everyone’s pocket. It made it be with you ever present and because it’s so smart and we can talk about the different ways that it can be used by people with disabilities, it is there for you 24/7. So it couldn’t be more huge. 	
rob	So we’ve gone the timeline all the way through to now so what about the future then, I mean I know wearable technology is something people seem to be talking a lot about at the moment, especially with Google Glass tantalisingly on the horizon. So, Robin, can you tell us a little bit about wearable and about Glass; I mean why would this help disabled people in particular? 	
robin	Absolutely. So Google I/O, which is their developer conference, last year promised this fantastic development Google Glass which is a very geeky pair of glasses with a built-in heads-up display which is sort of a screen when it’s not on you can see right through it, you can’t tell it’s there, but when it is it’s in your top right corner of vision and it can give you lots of useful information. And these are multi-media smart glasses with a built-in camera so there’s an awful lot of potential that it’s got. We can talk about exactly what those applications might be.	
rob	Like what though?	
robin	And a promo video. So the promo video that came out back in Google I/O last year had lots of amazing things. The chap wakes up, he’s got Glass on – I wouldn’t recommend sleeping in your glasses but anyway – he looks at the clock on the wall and smart object recognition could tell that he was looking at the clock and it thought: ooh he’s obviously interested in the time so it brought up on the heads-up display what his appointments were that morning. He looked out of the window and it could tell that he was doing that and so it gave him the weather forecast. As he’s walking down the street it could detect that he’s going into the subway either through geo-location or object recognition of the subway sign, but it tells him that the subway line is closed and so it gives him turn by turn directions. And everyone was getting really excited by this sort of prospect. But then it didn’t come into people’s hands until 12 months later with these explorer editions of Glass. And it did actually deliver largely on what that promo video promised and there are lots of things that it can do like you can issue voice commands and it will take a picture or it will record a video, you can do…	
rob	So being entirely selfish here me as someone’s visually impaired would if I’m walking down a street and it’s extremely busy and I’m struggling to see where I’m going, would it warn me if I was about to bump into a lamppost or walk into a sheet of glass?	
robin	No but there are smart glasses with active feedback that will do that, that Guide Dogs are working on. Since Glass kind of hit the scene and because it’s by Google it’s obviously caused many waves, and so there are loads of spin-off ones that can detect emotions, that can do facial recognition to tell you if there’s someone with a criminal record in your vicinity. There’s a whole range of things that are coming out as a result of this. But for people with a disability, and I’ve got a vision impairment myself, I’m really excited. You might think: well how could somebody who’s blind be as excited about this as other people? Obviously I can’t use the heads-up display; but this is a multi-media smart device so it has speech synthesis, we know it can do, for example, real-time translation, it can hear people in your surroundings, it can turn that speech into text for people with a hearing impairment. It can give you real-time sub-titling up on the heads-up display for people who can’t hear very well. It can translate that into other languages and have it spoken back to you.	
rob	Let’s go back to what you said about emotional responses because we asked on Twitter our followers what future tech they’d like. Lucy Seren tweeted to tell us that she wants something that could help her recognise and read people’s faces. She added the hash tag Asperger’s at the end so we have to assume that that’s the condition that she has. Now I’m very, very, very curious about this because as far as I’m aware the face is a rather nuanced and complex thing and just putting smiley faces at the end of texts that doesn’t really adequately describe the emotion that someone might be feeling when they’re writing something. Is it as primitive as that with Google Glass and its competitors?	
robin	It’s very mature. So a UK company have designed a pair of glasses with a rice grain sized camera in them and this software is very mature. So there’s 24 points, facial points, which it uses to try and decide what the emotion is. 	
rob	This is because people with Asperger’s find it difficult sometimes to recognise what kind of emotions they’re eliciting in someone.	
robin	Certainly that was the driving force but actually in tests it was shown to be more accurate than the human testers without any kind of impairment at all – 64% of the time it got it right compared to 56% of the time for mere mortals. So like with so many of these things there is a mainstream and a disability angle and one of the things about mobile computing that is very, very significant is that when you’re out and about many people are temporarily disabled. I would argue everybody who uses a mobile device is temporarily disabled at some point during the day. Maybe you're driving so you can’t look at the screen for prolonged periods, you can’t interact with it on a touch screen very much so you need to have options. You need to have it spoken back to you, you need to be able to speak to it or have gestures that you can wave at it to do a particular action. And if you’re in bright sunlight, for example, it’s difficult to see a mobile phone screen so to have high contrast or to have speech output is really important. So if you're temporarily disabled as every single user then you would take advantage of these features from time to time. But we just happen to be permanently disabled so because those options are there that makes it important for us. 
And it’s the same with this emotion recognition. Whether it was designed for people, you know whatever the origin was, whatever the reason there are so many apps, there are so many functions of your smart phone that I personally don’t care whether they were designed originally for people with an impairment or for a mainstream audience because they’re done in an inclusive way I can use them. 
So one example is on my phone I’ve got an app called Talking Goggles which does real-time object recognition. So I can point any product underneath it and it’s got a live video feed to the internet and it’s doing searches on every single image that’s on the internet and it will come back and speak that out to me; barcodes, products – it can even do OCR so it could read a letter to me. And it’s instantaneous if you’ve got a good internet connection and there’s a bit of a lag if you’re on 3G. But imagine that application and that’s not a disability specific product that’s so that people can go into the supermarket and scan in something and then get some information about it, get some cooking suggestions and see if they can get it cheaper round the corner that sort of thing. But for me it’s an absolute lifesaver.	
rob	But when is this going to happen?	
robin	It’s on my phone right now. 	
rob	This already exists?	
robin	Absolutely. Talking Goggles, I can’t remember how much it is it’s either free or it’s like 99p just like everything for mobile apps these days. Now if you take that concept and you put it in Glass that’s on your head all the time, the camera is looking wherever you’re looking and you take those smarts and that artificial intelligence, that kind of object recognition, just like we saw in the original promo video, this is technology that is really quite mature now and if you combine it with the multi-media capabilities of Glass then someone like myself who hasn’t got a pair of functioning eyes I would have at least one eye that had really clever smarts behind it looking wherever I’m looking, recognising objects and speaking out to me, we’ve know it’s got speech output in the glasses what I’m looking at, where I’m going, recognising things and giving me information about it. So I’m really, really excited. 	
rob	I do like the fact that, as you say, everybody is temporarily disabled at some point during the day, I find that such a great concept the idea that everyone’s getting a little taste of what I have at some point during the day; it’s almost like getting five free web pages before you have to go behind the paywall, it’s a little amuse-bouche. Are you looking forward to this, Emma, this world which Robin describes?  	
emma	I am. I think something I’m really looking forward to would be really very good indoor navigation, and navigation which pinpoints where you are and what you’re looking at, as Robin says. So to be honest that’s mostly so that I can get round the shopping centre and do shopping by myself. It’s not essential but it’s something that I can’t do right now. I can do most things but go off to the shopping centre and do all my Christmas shopping is just not that easy. So I’d like really, really good indoor navigation. 	
rob	So yeah it seems like it’s very blindy orientated this discussion on all the benefits, so I’m going to ask Simon and Tim does this have any relevance to you at all, can you see it making your life easier in the years to come?	
tim	Not really. My head shakes too much for it to work properly for me. 	
rob	Simon?	
simon	I’m a big fan of Robin and I’m a big fan of MobilityNet and I love hearing about this stuff because again there’s sort of accidental things that will be very useful to me just like they’re useful to other people. I don’t know what it might be yet, what might be more specific. Can I ask a question, I’m kind of curious?	
rob	Absolutely.	
simon	Is there a leader in this, Robin, in terms of all the Microsofts and Nokias or the Apples and Googles and all of these people is there one that builds in disability more routinely or some who are leading the way on this? 	
robin	Absolutely. Apple has really forged the vanguard in this area. Everything in an i device is accessible, everything to the extent that in the maps apps, I as a blind person, can trace my finger on roads and it will give me a certain sound. And if I go off the road it will make another sound and it’ll tell me if I’m coming up to a junction and it’ll say the name of the road and whether it’s east/west or north/south or south east of whatever it might be. The camera app when you're taking a photograph of someone it’ll say crisp, blurry, very blurry, one face top left so I as a blind person can centre that face and make sure that it’s focused and I can take a decent picture. 
For people with other disabilities there is everything in there. You can control an iOS device completely from a single switch, for example. There’s lot of stuff in there for hearing, it can drive a range of different hearing aids; so literally there are drivers in there for braille displays and hearing aids where it can communicate directly with the device so you don’t get any external interference at all. Unfortunately Google Glass doesn’t have drivers for these other external peripherals yet and that’s something that we’re advocating very hard for. But Apple is benefitting hugely from the love from the disabled community at large because they are very, very inclusive. 	
rob	They’re embracing it more than Google are in your opinion?	
robin	Google are playing catch up. I think they’ve been sort of embarrassed into TalkBack, for example, which is the equivalent speech output on Android is slowly, slowly closing the gap. But federal procurement being able to purchase thousands of iPads for the education sector in a given state it’s Apple every single time because they have laws that say if you’re going to procure lots of devices they need to be inclusive. And Apple has traditionally been the only ones that are truly inclusive and we’re benefitting from that.	
rob	Some of the headlines which we see – I really need you to help me flesh these out, Robin – because some of the ones I’ve seen recently they involve things like paralysed people or people with locked-in syndrome being able to control computers with their minds. Now is it possible to almost telepathic with your iPad or your PC, is just seems like bananas science fiction. I mean is this imminent or already happening? 	
robin	It absolutely is imminent. There’s a European project called BrainAble that AbilityNet are involved in, which is being able to control a computer or a prosthesis or a whole robotic exoskeleton just from thought, just from brainwaves. The most successful interface at the moment is an invasive one where you have to undergo surgery and have things implanted into your brain. That’s very accurate and you can see videos online if you search for BrainAble of people having a robotic arm drinking their cup of coffee etc. that is someone who is completely paralysed. But the surface, the skin mounted sensors are improving slowly but slowly. The last time I used one of those to be able to move a mouse around a screen and click I was having to either calm my thoughts very much to make the mouse go down or think really excited thoughts to make it go up and do some sort of facial gymnastics to make it go left and right and it was all a kind of…	
rob	Extraordinary. And let me a little Veruca Salt and be a spoilt brat and stamp my feet and say, “When? I want it now!” When you say imminent what are we talking here months or years or decades?	
robin	Oh absolutely somewhere between months and years. Like with so many things like with autonomous vehicles that technology is absolutely mature but it will be years, a couple of years at the minimum, before it is commercially available and we’re able to spend another five or ten thousand pounds on top of the price of a family car to be able to make it autonomous so that I’ll be able to use it as well as my wife driving too. 	
rob	Robin, I know everyone has GPS now these past ten years but this just seems like an absolutely crazy step into making the impossible possible. 	
robin	This technology is very mature. It has been driving around as Google street view cars, you know taking photographs of streets around America for the last three years, they have some really clever algorithms. So, for example, if they see a ball rolling out from behind a car they recognise that it’s a ball, they realise that there might be a child following so they’ll adjust their driving accordingly. They do recognise street signs, they do recognise traffic lights. They know the rules of the road, they can change lanes – it’s very mature. 	
rob	Do you trust it, guys would you actually step in one, Emma? 	
emma	Oh I’m not very good with change. 	
rob	I fear change.	
emma	Yes I think I would. 	
rob	This whole segment must be terrifying you then?	
emma	No. Well you see this is it, I love the technology but I like other people to try it out first. But I think there’s an issue with blind people and driverless cars because I don’t think sighted people will trust us in them. So I think it will be a long time before actually blind people get to drive them. I think sighted people will get to drive them a long time before we do, because it’ll start off very gently and you’ll still need a licence and the actual controls won’t be accessible to put in your destination and stuff like that. And it’ll take a long time before anyone trusts blind people to drive I reckon. 	
robin	There’s an etiquette and a social acceptance around this. Just like with Glass people have to, if you’re going into the gents you have to put the Glass on top of your head so it’s pointing up at the ceiling so people don’t get worried about what the camera’s looking at. And it’s like an acceptance thing. So, for example, there are three states: California, Nevada and Texas I think in America now where it is legal to drive these cars but you do have to have somebody in the driver’s seat. They don’t have to routinely take over the technology to get them out of a hole, we’re not at that point anymore, you know, it is very reliable technology. But it will be a while before people will accepting of there being nobody in the driver’s seat, but believe me it will happen and I’ll tell you why because Google Ventures, who are Venture Capitalists of Google, they have put in $258 billion to purchase 25,000 autonomous taxis for Uber, and Uber are a private taxi company that’s started in several different countries, and specifically so that they won’t have to pay taxi drivers. So these cars will be toddling around without anybody in them when they go to pick up their fare. 	
rob	Fantastic. 	
robin	So it won’t be that long.	
rob	Ghost cars!	
robin	Absolutely. 	
rob	At last.	
robin	Car sharing, parking no longer an issue. And for someone like us…	
rob	We should also point out at the risk of this turning this into a giant corporate promo that there are other companies making driverless cars and not just Google. 	
emma	Driverless cars won’t be able to take me into the place where I’m going and help me up to the counter though will they? So driverless taxi, get into the taxi, get there it just chucks me out in its nearest parking space to where I am and I’m still left kind of high and dry. But I understand the benefits, but you can’t beat a grumpy, nosy man helping you out. 	
simon	Could it not be actually safer. I mean I don’t know what the statistics are for autopilot on aeroplanes we do accept these now, we don’t think: oh my goodness they’ve gone to autopilot it’s all going to fall apart. Could it be that one day these cars are even safer than human beings driving?	
robin	They actually are safer because they gather all this data, all these statistics about how they’re driving you can compare it to human drivers and you see that they drive much more safely, much more smoothly, much more fuel efficiently. And the only time in the three years that they’ve been driving in America that they were involved in an accident was when a human driver rear-ended one of them and because they were gathering all the data from this car as it was driving they could unequivocally prove that it wasn’t the fault of the Google autonomous vehicle because it showed that it braked in a very smooth way etc. so it was obviously the fault of the person behind. So I’m very confident, very excited that it won’t be that long. 	
rob	On the whole then the human brain useless, unreliable and outdated I think this is what we can conclude. I’d like to thank Robin for this absolutely fascinating discussion. I know we’re going to return to this as technology is just moving at such an incredibly fast rate at the moment. So thank you so much, Robin. And also thank you to Emma, Simon and Tim for your contributions. 
Thanks for listening. We’re on Facebook, Twitter and email. Plus there’s clips of past shows on Audioboo. It’s like we’re a persistent stalker with a bad smell. Get in touch and tell us what you think or who you would like to hear us interview and why. 
Thanks to all our guests and to the team; Emma Tracey and Joe Langton, the studio manager. This show was produced by Damon Rose. So before we go I’m just going to drag the aforementioned Emma Tracey closer to the microphone – Emma are you close enough?  	
emma	I am I think. 	
rob	You are. So we’re playing out with The Fish Police today. Now we’ve had these guys on quite a lot over the years haven’t we so tell me all about them.	
emma	We have. We love The Fish Police. We played Fishwater last year and we had some great fun with quizzes with them in the studio and they played a big part in London 2012 as well, they had a big commission then. They’re part of Heart and Soul, a London based arts organisation. They’ve got a new album out called The Marzipan Transformation and this song is called Sabrin (My Very Last Day).	
rob	So until December, goodbye. 
[Playing music]