Ouch Podcast #71 – June 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Kiruna Stamell 

kiruna	Thanks for downloading me. I'm Kiruna Stamell and next to me is Rob Crossan. What's on the show, Rob? 	
rob	Hello, we'll be chatting to social entrepreneur Caroline Casey today who has her eye on some recent news stories. And later we'll be previewing what's on at the disability stage at this month's Glastonbury Festival with the people who organised it all. 	
kiruna	And we'll be playing some of the music you're going to her at the festival if you attend. All that plus plenty of the usual chat. 
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show.]	
ROB	So, Kiruna, I've just come back from not a place you would call your usual holiday destination. 	
kiruna	Why where have you been?	
rob	Well I was working in Kuwait a place where getting alcohol is utterly, utterly, completely and totally impossible and where it's 50 degree heat in the desert it's just cruel because you want a beer more than any time you've ever wanted a beer in your life. Not a lot happens in Kuwait but there was something I wanted to talk to you about which I found very interesting when I was there. 	
kiruna	Okay what did you see in Kuwait?	
rob	Well the first thing you should do when you arrive in Kuwait is obviously make sure you don't have any gin on you. And then pick up a copy of the Kuwaiti Times all the news that's fit to print as long as the EMEA likes it of course.	
kiruna	Is that written in English? 	
rob	Yes it's the English language daily for Kuwait. I was wondering I wonder what happens in Kuwait and I can't imagine it being that lively, I picked up the paper and I was confronted on page three by a photo of an incredibly obese Kuwaiti man. 	
kiruna	Like how obese are we talking? 	
rob	I can only do stone, are you alright with stone?	
kiruna	How many seats on a bus?	
rob	Three. 	
kiruna	Three! 	
rob	Yeah, oh yeah for sure definitely. And the reason why he was in the paper was because he was the proud winner of the Kuwaiti Pizza Eating Championships; he managed to eat I think it was something like 42 cheese pizzas in nine minutes or something like that. And it just made me think like I really enjoy these binge eating competitions, one of my favourite movie scenes of all time is the bit in Stand By Me where they talk about... he's writing his little story and one of them's about the pie eating competition where they all end up throwing up on each other. And I worked in... 	
KIRUNA	You see that just repulses me. 	
rob	Oh but it was funny. When you were a kid that was hilarious. 	
KIRUNA	No. 	
rob	No? Even as a child you didn't find that funny?	
KIRUNA	I was never into force... I was never into force feeding myself or anybody else. I was the kind of person that would be like do you know what, I'm full now I will save that so there's room for dessert. 	
rob	So you would obviously never eat it... ever enter into one of these you know chicken wing eating contests or whatever?	
KIRUNA	No because I think I'd just associate it with pain and a feeling of being bloated and heavy and I like to feel nimble and svelte. But less about me feeling nimble and svelte what were you saying about this competition?	
rob	Well this is the thing why would you celebrate this kind of thing? I mean I think they're really funny. When I worked in Lad's Mags in my 20s we would cover a lot of these kind of binge eating competitions. But the more I think about it the more I looked at this huge guy in Kuwait, the more I thought you've actually got a huge physical disability and with your desire to want to eat that much pizza probably a mental disability as well. And I'm just kind of interested in what you think and also maybe what the listeners think as well as to whether these kind of binge eating competitions are they funny or are they just kind of exploitative of people who are morbidly obese? 	
KIRUNA	I see what you're saying celebrating something that actually ends up then being... 	
rob	Killing them probably. 	
KIRUNA	... well killing you, yes to be force feeding you that sort of food.	
rob	And it is a disability. I mean so many of my friends have the stance of well I would never be openly prejudice against a person with a disability, but obesity nah that's just too many pies and not going out enough and not running. 	
KIRUNA	I've always had to wonder about that because I know that a lot of people will critique and say things like, "Oh it's a lack of will" or this, that and the other. But you know the documentaries that I've seen on people that are kind of grossly obese you wouldn't necessarily ever desire to go out and make that happen unless you've got something skewed going on with your perspective on things. 	
rob	Well that's the thing I always think the only way you can be really have any kind of understanding of it is not to look at the size of the belly but look at what's going on in their head I would imagine. But it's really difficult because yeah I must admit I have that attitude myself where I look at someone who's clearly enormously obese and part of me thinks alright there may be a 10/15% chance that it's genuinely something glandular or there's some real physical problem that they have. But part of it... 	
KIRUNA	10% chance it's glandular. 	
rob	Yeah. You just like pies way too much. 	
KIRUNA	You're not a doctor. 	
rob	I know I'm not a doctor but I can't help but feel that way that it's self imposed and it's their fault. 	
KIRUNA	Is it though? 	
rob	And that's awful I know.	
KIRUNA	Is it a good thing to judge because I don't think we know enough yet about the human body with the brain and the feedback loop all of that to our own system? Part of me sort of thinks we don't know. But at the same time I'm aware that we're actually also being body fascists here as well because everybody has the right to appear however they want to appear and to look however they want to look. And so there's that balance to of kind of well is it wrong for somebody to challenge the acceptable size of what a person should be in terms of width. I mean I know I'm certainly challenging in terms of height but if you look at the other axis it's difficult and you've got to be careful.  	
rob	I don't believe... you don't really have a choice with your height. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah but then again we don't know what's going on with other people whether or not they have a choice to be compulsively eating or whether they have a choice to be emotionally eating, or whether they've got... Okay like, for example, one of my family members a couple of years ago developed quite a serious mental illness and the medication that she is on to treat the psychotic episode that she had leads to a desire to constantly eat carbs, basically like a legal drug that's kind of having the same effect of getting the munchies. And there's been that kind of leaning towards this member of my family putting on loads of weight. 	
rob	And also if you're in a wheelchair...	
KIRUNA	So you don't know. 	
rob	... it must be quite hard I imagine or harder... 	
KIRUNA	Ways of exercising.	
rob	... ways of exercising as well yeah. 	
KIRUNA	You know so it's a very difficult thing to judge. I mean I know myself I'm the sort of person that can pick something up, put it down but I've never been obsessive about food or even been political about food in that sense myself. But I can imagine that there's a whole bunch of factors that lead people to overeat, or at the other end of the spectrum, be self harming by having got anorexia or something like that. Like at either end of the food spectrums I'm sure it's the result of so many social factors and physical factors...	
rob	It sounds like you're okay with burger eating competitions because it's their choice to choose to have that. 	
KIRUNA	I don't know it does gross me out I hate the idea of... 	
rob	I'm sure it is their choice. 	
KIRUNA	... people... I hate the idea of people forcing themselves to be gluttonous. But I don't like the drinking equivalents either. 	
rob	But you're Australian. 	
KIRUNA	I know isn't that sort of ironic? 	
rob	Is that why you're here. I need to go somewhere where they don't drink at all, yeah, northern England. 	
KIRUNA	No I think it's kind of forcing the body in an unhealthy way to reach its limits does kind of slightly turn my stomach. 	
rob	Let's talk about Australia then the Bondi beach culture, very outdoor culture is obesity as much, do you notice as many obese people... 	
KIRUNA	Yeah I mean... 	
rob	... in Australia as you do here? 	
KIRUNA	Yeah you do. I think that it's difficult because we live in a society where you've actually got to work against becoming obese, do you know what I mean? Like you go out to a restaurant the food portions are a certain size. 	
rob	You mean massive. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah well you're given a huge amount like there's no choice to say, "Can I have half that?" Because I mean I don't eat huge amounts of food like where am I going to put it and so I often end up taking stuff home. 	
rob	So that's where you put it in a doggie bag. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah I go, "Can I have a doggie bag and take it home?"...	
rob	It's in your fridge.	
KIRUNA	... and it stays in the fridge. But if you're just everything that's put in front of you you're not questioning it and you want to... you're taught to go from the beginning to the end of your meal and completely polish everything off, well if you're given a huge steak and all of this other stuff that goes with it, and you're going to be eating it, we do live in a society where you've got to actively work against obesity. Work hours make it difficult for people to work out. We're inside during the times of the day where it's lovely and sunny, particularly in winter in this country where you might have an opportunity to go for a walk, you go to work in winter when it's dark and you leave when it's dark. 	
rob	Yeah you basically don't see daylight at all. 	
KIRUNA	No. And it's not a healthy society in which we live where you're actually having to consciously work against getting fat. Like that to me says... 	
rob	But what you're saying is... 	
KIRUNA	... that's something's out of balance....	
rob	... almost total... 	
KIRUNA	... is out. 	
rob	... what you're saying all makes total sense. So why is it then that so many of my able bodied friends are able to be utterly liberal and understanding to the best of their abilities about issues regarding all kinds of disabilities, and yet obesity is something that probably has less sympathy amongst the general public than any other disability. 	
KIRUNA	I think our attitude to food is strange. That's what I think it is, that there's a sense of blame, that you're weak you can't stop, you're picking that up, you're not exercising, you're lazy. Rather than a recognition that maybe underneath all of that that those things are maybe symptomatic of underlying other issues. 	
rob	Depression, for example. 	
KIRUNA	Well depression or having learnt to kind of associate food with pleasure or escape. Like I had a friend back in Australia who grew up in quite an abusive family who when something dodgy was going off she would be given money and sent to the shops for food and candy to take her away from the dodginess of the environment... 	
rob	Instant association... 	
kiruna	... that she was living in. 	
rob	... with escapism and food. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah. Like I mean there's so many instances where I know friends of mine where, for example, they knew that they could manipulate their mother by not eating a meal, or eating meal you know what I mean that food and things like that become very political and emotionally linked, so it's not just about the enjoyment and the joy of this fuel that you eat, it becomes kind of indicative of other things. 	
rob	But food's good, come on. 	
KIRUNA	I love it, I love food. 	
rob	I was looking at the photo of this fat Kuwaiti man and I just thought are you happy? Is he happy? Would he be happy, can you be happy? 	
KIRUNA	I don't think you can feel that emotional hold with food. It comes out the other end, one way or the other. 
[Jingle: You can subscribe for free to the Ouch Talk Show by going to bbc.co.uk/podcast where you'll find us listed under entertainment. That's bbc.co.uk/podcast.]	
rob	News time now and we're joined from Dublin by social entrepreneur, founder of the Kanchi Network and the Ability Awards it's Caroline Casey. 	
KIRUNA and ROB	Hello, Caroline. 	
Caroline	Hello. 	
rob	So before we do the news, let's hear a clip of you ending a rousing presentation at the famous TED Conference recently. 
[Playing clip: There's every single one of us - woman, man, gay, straight, disabled, perfect, normal whatever every one of us must be the very best of ourselves. I no longer want anybody to be invisible. We all have to be included and stop with the labels, the limiting of labels, because we are not jam jars, we are extraordinarily different, wonderful people. Thank you.] 	
rob	We are not jam jars. 	
KIRUNA	I love that. I think that's wonderful.	
rob	You sound a bit out of breath there were you jumping up and down on the trampoline?	
caroline	I tell you what I do sound out of breath. I actually haven't listened back to it, I'll be honest I was terrified. 	
rob	That was pure, raw terror I was hearing there. 	
caroline	That was a bit of passion and terror and I think doing a TED Talk yeah it's terrifying. 	
kiruna	Well they are a very big deal. I've watched a few online but it was lovely to actually hear that passion in your voice because I think people don't allow their emotions to show enough these days I don't think. I think we're a little bit too self controlled to the point of why do we both sharing. 	
rob	A little bit of emotional repression goes a long way. 	
Kiruna	You would say that though you're so English. 	
rob	I don't want the whole world to turn into Oprah Winfrey. 	
kiruna	Oh no please. 	
caroline	I agree. I agree. So like listening to that back I'm going good God I do sound very emotional. I was emotional and I think it's really important because TED is a great platform and disability is often so invisible in so many of these platforms. And I think when you finally get up there you're going, "Look you've got to hear what we've got to say" I think that's really where it came from. 	
rob	And tell us just in a nutshell what do you do at Kanchi? 	
caroline	Well I founded the organisation Kanchi just about 11 years ago. And I named it after an elephant that I went across India on when I was 28 years old and came out of the closet about my own ocular albinism which I'd hidden for a long time. 	
rob	Same disability as me. 	
KIRUNA	So you and Rob.	
rob	The first time ever there is a fellow ocular albino on the show. 	
caroline 	It's great, I wish we could see each other to see what we look like. 	
rob	There's so few... well I know what you look like because I've seen you on YouTube but you've no idea what I look like yet. 	
caroline	You sound very handsome. 	
kiruna	He looks very red, to be honest. 	
rob	I've just come back from... 	
kiruna	It's all that sun. 	
rob	I've just been in the Middle East so yeah with 50 degree heat I'm now looking more albino.	
caroline	Yeah the whole skin thing is dreadful right?	
rob	... than ever. My hair's blonder and my face is redder so yeah I'm probably overt today than I have been for a few years. 	
kiruna	Eyebrows are whiter. 	
rob	Yeah everything's whiter. 	
caroline	Yeah well the good thing is, by the way I'm a natural blond and I don't need to get highlights I just need to go out in the sun it's fantastic. 	
kiruna	Okay now I'm jealous. 	
rob	You see. 	
kiruna	I got asked by a five year old last week why I have a dark stripe down the middle of my scalp. And I had to explain that that was roots regrowth. 	
caroline	There are some benefits for ocular albinism. But anyway the organisation what we do is we change thinking and behaviours around disability, and we focus very much on business and media because if we can change thinking through business and move away from a charity model to a model where we see that people with disabilities are valuable and can contribute, particularly through the business world, because business is everywhere in society well then society will change too. So that's what we do. 	
kiruna	Well that's very relevant because I know that one of the news stories that you've got is about how disabled people at the moment are actually suffering increased levels of abuse. 	
caroline	Well yeah this was a really interesting article that was in The Guardian and it was basically saying that disabled people have faced greater hostility from the public since the government launched its controversial benefits reforms. And the reason that I found this an incredibly interesting article is because once again this article is focusing on the dependency and the need of the disabled community. And the reason that this article, and it really touched a chord, it's named the disabled community feel that the public in general are kind of looking at them as if they're scroungers taking money out of the system. And I think this is just a place where a lot of us feel this is really relevant. The disability community have so much to offer yet the focus has constantly been on the service provision that we need, where we're dependent, what we take.	
kiruna	Is it that the public are viewing the disabled person as being non-productive? 	
caroline	Look this issue's so complex right? Everybody contributes differently and even if you look at the business world versus the not for profit sector, and there's a whole issue around pay, about how people in the not for profit sector should not be paid as much as the business world. You've got to see how we all can contribute and the value of our contribution to society in general. The biggest thing for me is I think we need to be seeing more people with disabilities in positions in business or commenting in media about anything other than simply disability topics. We need to hear people with disability living a life, we need to give them that visibility and platform. Because, unfortunately, so much of what we hear is around the dependency and sadness or the freakishness not the very normal part of a person being a person. 	
rob	But it doesn't work though does it because it's all very well to have these kind of opinions expressed on podcasts such as Ouch and in Disability Now or The Guardian but they are listened to and read by comparatively few people compared to the mass... 	
caroline	Exactly. 	
rob	... market tabloids. 	
caroline	Exactly. 	
rob	If we can't get through to the mass market tabloids then nothing's going to change. How do we change, how do we... 	
caroline	We can.	
rob	... what do we do about that?  	
caroline	We can because think about it. Look if you look at the issue, I know it's not the same, but if we look at how the issue of woman particularly in work has changed over the last quarter of a century and we still haven't got that sorted, I'm just talking about the work area. Things go change. And what we really do need to see is yes we can get... we have some fantastic... Stephen Fry, for example, let's look at him. Stephen Fry is a commentator, a media... he's a journalist, he's an actor he has mental health issues and he speaks about it but that is only part of what he is because he's a fantastic actor, he's a fantastic author, he's a fantastic journalist, he's a fantastic social media person we just have to start really pushing to get people who are talented, and there are plenty of people with disabilities who are talented and really pushing and using people of influence to open up the opportunities so we start hearing them in the media or start seeing them sitting on boards in businesses. 	
kiruna	You've got a story about this for us, Caroline, about how celebrities with a disability aren't that recognisable to the general public, can you tell me a bit about that? 	
caroline	Yeah it came from Disability Scoop and it was a disability advocacy organisation had reviewed about how many people could name somebody with disability that was well known. And that was either celebrity of business or otherwise. And 52% of people could not name one person who was well known who had a disability. And in the case of intellectual disability 99% of somebody could not talk about somebody who was well known. And the only two people that came up commonly were Stephen Hawking or Susan Boyle from Britain's Got Talent. 	
rob	What a couple they are. 	
caroline	What a lovely couple they would be. 	
kiruna	And how represented I feel. 	
rob	Hawkbo.	
caroline	Or Bohawk. 	
rob	Bohawk perfect, God I can see the wedding bells, you can hear them anyway. So why is this? I mean there's obviously so, so many and if we can boil it down to Boyle and Hawking then year that proves we haven't really got very far in terms of as a society that hasn't been able to appreciate it.	
kiruna	Let's look at who we've got. How well known are we talking? How famous do they need to be? 	
caroline	Let's look at Richard Branson, let's do a little quick one here. Richard Branson has a significant dyslexia. Now I know when you talk about dy--... you know people say dyslexia's not a disability but it can be and it certainly is if it's not diagnosed early on in school, and it is known to be. He does not speak about his dyslexia very much. 	
kiruna	No, okay. 	
caroline	So if he doesn't speak about it and own it and talk about it and go, "And I had it and this is what I did and get on with it" you know it would be very powerful, hugely powerful for people who are struggling in school or parents who have children who have dyslexia. So he's somebody we don't talk about. You've Blunkett he was blind, you know it's incredible. Michael Caine had a brother with a significant disability, he didn't speak about it. And I think disability does touch a lot of people but we don't own up to it and can I say... 	
kiruna	I was surprised to discover that the famous playwright, Arthur Miller... 	
caroline	Yeah. 	
kiruna	... had a child with Down's Syndrome and the child was completely left out of every autobiography he ever wrote. 	
rob	Well we like to think things have changed. I mean Arthur Miller his generation, Death of a Salesman's all about delusion isn't it, it's about sweeping things under the carpet in reality, but you'd like to think that that's changed a little bit now. But obviously the likes of Michael Caine still aren't able to talk about these quite intense personal issues that they've got with disability in their family. 	
caroline	Well he did actually start to, and it was recent it was about two years ago, he really started to speak about it. And I remember reading an article and going, "Oh my God I would love to hear Michael Caine talk" like really talk about that experience because I think that would be just hugely valuable. And he did talk about in an article but just mentioned it very briefly. And I think somebody like him speaking about his personal experiences of having a brother who was different and what that brought to the family that would be hugely important. But I do think, you're so right, people we feel that it's something that we've to overcome or not that's something that we're proud of, you know what I mean, that way it's part of our identity. 	
rob	I don't think it's a case of being... is it really a case of being proud or is it just a case of being just, you know, being factually aware of what's going on. 	
caroline	Exactly. Well no... you're right it's not about shouting out okay I'm proud of it, it's just I'm proud of who I am, and part of who I am is that I have a disability. It's not something that I should be... And I say this very personally because having hid my sight for so long, I mean, I did not tell anybody until I was 28 years old that I couldn't see. And that was very much about because I was worried that if I told people that I didn't see very well, particularly where I was working, that I would get the boot.  	
kiruna	How did you get that ruse to kind to pass?	
rob	I've got the same condition as you and I didn't get to 28 people sussed me out long before that, on the football pitch supposedly. 	
caroline	Hey Rob am I a better actor? 	
rob	Absolutely, you're a little Lawrence Olivier obviously. 	
kiruna	Did you just memorise the entire texts?	
caroline	No I'll tell you what the reason that it kind of happened to me is when I was born actually my parents made a decision to bring me up as a sighted child and just to see how I'd go. So I was never given any reason to believe that I didn't see very well and I wore glasses. I don't know do you wear glasses, Rob, but I wear glasses.	
rob	Oh no they make things worse. 	
caroline	Yeah for me for my... so I have a pair of glasses which don't make much of a difference, a bit like vaseline, but that's why. So I was sort of I wasn't given a reason not to believe otherwise. I definitely knew I was different, as I'm sure Rob can relate to this, because I was never picked out to play teams with things like soccer and like that. But it's amazing what you can do. It really is amazing what you can do if you... And that's my thing we have great ability to be tenacious and find solutions to do different things and you can... and I did get away with it but I have to say I was caught in very embarrassing situations all through my life. 	
rob	Indulgently I would love to keep on talking to you about this for literally days, Caroline, but we can't. So thank you very much for coming in and giving us these fantastic news stories. 	
caroline	Thank you. 	
rob	[Jingle: Want to find more disability related podcasts from the BBC try the You and Yours podcast, In Touch and All in the Mind. Go to bbc.co.uk/podcast where you can also find the Ouch Talk Show. That's bbc.co.uk/podcast.]	
kiruna	Britain's most famous music festival, Glastonbury, is about to kick off again. And it's starting on June 22nd. 	
rob	And I'll be there, oh yes. With us on the phone is Suzanne Bull, the CEO of Attitude is Everything. Hello Suzanne.	
KIRUNA	Hello.	
suzanne	Hello. 	
rob	And with us in the studio is Grae Wall, their promoter. Hello Grae. 	
grae	Hello. 	
rob	So where is your stage going to be in Glastonbury and what's going to be on it. 	
gray	Well we're up in the Shangri-La field which is one of the main alternative fields really, up at the top of the site and it's a stage called the Dada stage which is run by Continental Drifts. Very, very cool area. Very easy to find. If you get to the Shangri-La field it is the biggest stage there so it's great.	
kiruna	You're the promoter or you've selected all of the bands that are going to be on the stage? 	
grae	Yeah I'm the promoter yeah I'm sort of responsible for finding the artists.	
kiruna	So who have you got? What's your line-up? 	
graE	Okay. Well we have a fantastic band called Captain Angelo who are quite a new band. And they actually played our showcase at Rich Mix just a month or two ago and we were blown away with how good they were. So we invited them along. The wonderful Heavy Load who are... 	
kiruna	Very popular.	
rob	Legends.	
graE	You know they are legends, they are genuine legends. They've played before for us at Glastonbury and did our first one there two years ago and created such a party and it was just brilliant. 	
rob	They were throwing beach balls around...	
graE	They were. 	
rob	... heavy on the beach balls. 	
graE	Absolutely, Gay for the weekend. 	
kiruna	Was that the Glastonbury that you were at, Rob?	
rob	I was there two years ago and this is what I want to throw this open to both of you Gray, and Suzanne, this might be a little bit awkward but I did go down there two years ago with a couple of friends for the Saturday afternoon and until Heavy Load turned up there was almost nobody there at all. There was hardly anyone there. Now what are you going to do this year in order to try and get more bums near the stage?	
graE	Heavy Load were definitely the biggest pull.	
rob	A lot of people turned up for Heavy Load but yeah.	
graE	Yeah, yeah, no absolutely. It is that thing. I mean that first year what we didn't have was a sort of special guest named band. Last year we did. And it's actually it's something that we do usually with our gigs is we have one at Rich Mix and it's something we normally do. So last year we had Drug Store, this year we've got the Band of Holy Joy. The Band of Holy Joy are a great name... 	
rob	And not actually disabled?	
graE	No. 	
rob	Can I throw this over to you as well, Suzanne, yes sorry. 	
suzanne	Can I continue is that okay? First of all I know that we have a mixed bill at Club Attitude it's about putting on together disabled and non disabled and sometimes it's about getting headline acts that will attract audiences in. And sometimes that headline act's disabled like it might have been the Mystery Jets in the past and sometimes it's not. Because it's about developing people's careers together and people playing together really. The other thing is that yes they're might not have been many people there in the first year, but it's the first time that any stage for any portion of time in terms of music had been given over to disabled artists. 	
kiruna	I see what you're saying. 	
rob	Which is great. 	
kiruna	It's really trailblazing and to sort of set something up and to allow it to establish you need to sew those seeds. 	
suzanne	Yeah. And I think what you've got to realise is that for any small promoter doing anything new, no matter what it is, is quite difficult. We had 80 people at the stage last year and that yes for Drug Store. But the other thing about it was that on the other stage, and they appeared on the television as well, was Staff Benda Balili and then also one of the greatest disabled artists in the world Stevie Wonder. So the messages got through already that disabled artists were able to play Glastonbury, were playing Glastonbury within a year can you see how much had changed. And disabled artists were all over Glastonbury whether it was our stage or the other artists they booked anyway. 	
rob	Well I really hope it is something you can build on. Just give me the full set list, if you can, of which bands are going to be playing this year in Dada? 	
suzanne	Heavy Load, Captain Angelo, Band of Holy Joy and then the DJs we've got our DJ Void, the Deaf Rave DJs who are there for the third year, and Stella OBE. And Stella OBE's played with Massive Attack and all sorts of people. 	
rob	And we'll be hearing some of those bands that Suzanne's just mentioned we'll be hearing a few of them at the end of the programme today. But in terms of actually finding bands with disabilities, Grae as a promoter, how do you go about searching out the talent? Or do you let the talent come to you? 	
grae	It is a mixed bag. I mean we are on the lookout ourselves but also quite often bands will approach us. It's one of the great things I think about being somewhere like Glastonbury is it sort of raises our profile and so people spot us and say, "Oh we ought to get in contact with them." So it does happen both ways. Sometimes we just come across acts ourselves and go out and check them out, and other times they come to us. But at the end of the day we're like any other music promoter, we're looking for things that are special and trying to put our artists into appropriate places at the appropriate times. So with something like the thing at Glastonbury it's really important that the artists that we're putting up there are of exceptional quality. And that for me, as a promoter, that's actually first and foremost is I'm looking for bands that I know are going to work in that environment and that anyone walking past is just going to say, "This has blown me away." 	
rob	Well thanks so much Suzanne and Grae for coming in. And can you tell us how people can find out a bit more about Attitude is Everything?	
suzanne	Yeah, you can look on the website www.attitudeiseverything.org.uk or telephone us on 020 7383 7979 although we're all not back in the office until Tuesday I have to say just quickly just in case anyone phones up straight away. 	
rob	Oh don't worry by the time this programme comes out you will be back in the office again. 	
suzanne	Okay. 	
rob	So we're going to hear some of the bands on your stage to end the show, so do stay listening. 	
kiruna	The team were Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey. Studio manager was Jo Langton and the producer was Damon Rose. 	
rob	And we'll be back in a couple of weeks with podcast full of social networking and wheelchair tennis. In the meantime we're going to leave you with some of the sounds of Club Attitude at Glastonbury; Captain Angelo, then Heavy Load and finishing with the Band of Holy Joy who, ladies and gents, are one of those non disabled bands the guys were just telling us about. Goodbye. 	
KIRUNA	Bye. 
[Playing music]