Ouch Podcast #67 – March 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

LIZ	Thank you for downloading the show. I'm Liz Carr, Mat Fraser's away today so I'm joined by globetrotter and freelance albino, Rob Crossan. How're you doing?	
ROB	Oh hello I'm de luxe thank you. Do stayed tuned because on the show today we're joined by American rocker who's also blind, JP Corwyn who will be on the phone from Pensacola in Florida. 	
liz	And step into the Ouch time machine for a bit of retrospective psychoanalysis, but that's all later there's more to get through before then. 
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show.]
Feeling a bit out of my comfort zone, Rob, I'll be honest. Very used to co-presenting with Mat, as you know, obviously he's got the flippers, very obvious impairment there, here I am faced with you really there's nothing wrong with you.	
rob	There's nothing wrong for you to laugh at is there apart from my flat cap? 	
liz	Yeah he's wearing a cap, listeners. 	
ROB	You could giggle at that for a little while. 	
liz	It's okay, where's your whippet? 	
ROB	You're from even further north than me how dare you.	
liz	You could have an assistance whippet or ferret couldn't you?	
ROB	We'll go and shovel some coal out of the bath tub later. Well I'm a ((covertie sic)) not an ((overtie sic)) as I prefer to say.	
liz	I've never heard this. 	
ROB	In terms of my disability because sometimes I can go for hours before anybody realises that there's something wrong with me. 	
liz	You're like camouflage to be normal.  	
ROB	It is, it's disability camo but it's quite annoying, because whereas obviously you're quite empathetic about it as I suppose you have to be, it happened the other day and I have it probably about once every six months, so I'll talk to somebody and reveal to them that I'm an albino, and they'll go, "You're not an albino" 
"So what makes you say that?"
"Well you haven't got red eyes and your skin isn't the colour of washing powder." 

And so yeah it's a bit annoying, I panic sometimes because I feel like honestly they're going to walk away from the conversation thinking, "God I just had a chat with a disability fraudster." So what do I do, I don't understand quite how... I panic that that I have to try and justify my disability.	
liz	It's the fact they they you'd make it up. 	
ROB	I know what a thing to make up wouldn't make up something a little bit more interesting, why would you make up that you're an albino, make up that, I don't know, my Dad is Colin Firth is something. I don't know why would you do that? 	
liz	"You're having a laugh you're not an albino."	
ROB	Yeah it is it's literally it's like and I go, "Yes I am" and it gets quite tense sometimes. I had an argument at a bus stop with a friend of mine about it the other week and I don't know if I think of him as a friend anymore, I've got to be honest. 	
liz	Is your Dad Colin Firth?	
ROB	Well I'll tell you later. 	
liz	Wow! Is he an albino?	
ROB	We should say... he can do whatever he likes now.	
liz	He's God, God. 	
ROB	It would be good if he did play an albino, so yes this should be dedicated to all the…..	
liz	Bertie played the Oscar's cripple card didn't he? 	
ROB	Yeah and boy did that turn up an ace. So stammerers and stutterers I was thinking what an amazing journey though we’ve taken because I was thinking 20 years ago when I... maybe a bit more than that about 23 years ago I remember it one of the first records I ever bought, when stuttering and a stammering came into the public limelight in 1988 it was in the form of stutter rap by Morris Minor and the Majors. And we've gone from that to The King's Speech in 20 years. 	
liz	Very well respected. 	
ROB	Very well respected and none of the K-K-K- Ken from Fishpool Wanderers, one of the Michael Palin character.	
liz	Not at all. 	
ROB	So we've got to consider that to be an advance. 	
Liz	Yes, no good but always the stuff that if you play a disabled character it's pretty much a fast track to getting an Oscar isn't it and it was...	
ROB	By the way, can I tell you about this amazing story that I've found because you know obviously with the disability cutbacks we're all experiencing at the moment, we're all suffering, let's use the word suffering.	
liz	Is that why you've got the cap so you can go cap in hand? Going around the BBC "Penny for a journalist?"	
ROB	I'd prefer to have a bigger cap this one's a little bit small, I'd prefer some sort of Stetson that's the kind of hat that I think is suitable for these recessionary times. Now this is a solution, I found this in the Courthouse News Service online blog in Los Angeles and this is a fella called Thomas Mundy and he is basically a serial disability litigator. He's filed over 300 suits against various American companies for failing the People With Disabilities Act.	
LIZ	Yeah but hold on but isn't that fine doesn't that just mean he's a good lawyer it's making sure that nobody's getting away with stuff. 	
ROB	Well no because he lost eventually and this is what the story's about. He sued a carwash firm for claiming that the mirror in the disability toilet was too high up for him to see through. And obviously in contravention of the People With Disabilities Act see you in court. And he lost because obviously that's ridiculous. And they said in the court that there were plenty of other surfaces he could look at himself in. That was their reason. But it's amazing this is what people need to do just start wandering around the streets, do a Norman Tebbit, get on your bike or your scooter or get in your wheelchair and go and have a wander around and see which businesses are failing the... 	
liz	How much money did he earn from it all?	
ROB	Well it doesn't say but you would have thought that if he was filing over 300 he probably made quite a bit of money out of it. 	
liz	Yeah. So is this the new way, you know, last month we were talking about self employment, employment for disabled people, so you think this is the new way ahead?	
ROB	Well possibly. It's given me a few ideas. I'm going to go to that pub in Russell Square which has got a massive family size table in front of the disability toilet door, so it's an amazing start. So I know straight where I'm heading. 	
LIZ	I love it when we get you talking disability stuff because it's like, "You know what and there was a table in front of the accessible toilet, well I was blown away and I wanted to take a picture" Rob, that's just a way of life do you know what I mean? 	
ROB	I've never seen that before. 	
liz	It is. I saw this radical new thing somebody had blocked the escape. 	
ROB	Does that happen all the time? 	
liz	Yeah. 	
ROB	Does it? 	
liZ	Yeah. 	
ROB	Well what do you... 	
liz	They just all think we've got catheters that's why.	
ROB	Well why aren't you taking all these people to court then? 	
liz	Well we're going to now on your advice. 	
ROB	You should do. So that's what you've been doing like a poor little pathetic disabled person with an overly full bladder "Oh there's a table in front of the disability toilet... 	
liz	I'll go next door. 	
ROB	... I'll just have to wet myself." Is that what you've been doing these last 35 years?	
liz	Yeah but then you wet yourself. 	
ROB	I've got no respect for you. 	
liz	You wet yourself and then you've proved you are disabled. That's what you need to do more. 	
ROB	And up goes the DLA. "Look at me I'm soggy and I'm poor."	
LIZ	Times are hard, Rob, and if you want to be taken seriously as a disabled person you should start wetting yourself more, that's my advice to you. 	
ROB	Right. Speaking of which then... Ah this is another thing I wanted to ask because you know obviously blue badge holders get priority parking spaces, have you ever... 	
liz	Have you ever noticed that, Rob, that disabled people can park anywhere?	
ROB	I'm visually impaired I don't see much alright, I don't see why I should be particularly interested in your boring disabled world. But you... 	
LIZ	Oooh! 	
ROB	She's too militant, listeners, she's always banging on. Anyway Victoria Beckham right, so says all the newspapers at the moment I've got this from the Daily Mail. 	
liz	I love this pretend disabled people.	
ROB	... because that's the way I roll. Victoria Beckham's been slammed for denying Cystic Fibrosis sufferer a parking space after stopping in a disabled bay at a toyshop, her chauffeur, not Victoria Beckham I should point out, her chauffeur rolled in so parked in the disability bay so Posh could run in and get some balloons for one of her son's birthday party and blocked a Cystic Fibrosis sufferer from taking the place. 	
LIZ	She must be disabled in some way though mustn't she?	
ROB	Yeah well are we going to say some predictable about……	
liz	No, no, no, not she probably has my God. But it happens a lot there's always these stories. There was John Prescott and we've had lots of celebs that do the thing that their chauffeurs park because of course the blue badge parking, the disabled parking is always right at the entrance so... 	
ROB	Yeah for VIPs.	
liz	For VIPs and disabled people. 	
ROB	And disabled. But go on who do we love more do we love celebrities or do we love disableds?	
LIZ	So she got fined?	
ROB	Sixty quid. Yeah outrageous. 	
LIZ	It should be more. Most places don't charge though. It's sort of like if you go shopping it's like 'Please do not park here' but they don't do anything about it I'm just quite... 	
ROB	What difference does it make to you, you've got a really fast moving chair why can't you park in the most inconvenient spot at the back and just scoot forward to the shop entrance, why do you have to be right at the front? 	
liz	Because by the time I actually got into the place where I was going I'd be so exhausted.	
ROB	You'd probably wet yourself. 	
liz	And I'd get in there and there'd be tables near the toilet so I couldn't go in. It's a real, you know, that there's so many disabled people and their needs are different isn't it because you're absolutely right some people if you're in a zippy chair then absolutely you could argue that it's easier. If you're pushing yourself, if you're walking then maybe you need to be even closer, practically in the shop. There is no sussing out what level, you know, how many miles can you go in your chair and how fast can you go. So those that have that mainly powered chairs and stuff like that...	
ROB	Are there not tests for that kind of thing? 	
liz	Do you not think it's only a matter of time possibly.	
ROB	No I think it's coming isn't it? 	
liz	I think it possibly... But the thing that I love most about the blue badge stuff is that... I mean there's other reasons it can be like you have to park closer because you're like me, Rob, look at me I'm quite thin, quite little I get cold, Rob. If I'm out and I need to... Is that not convincing you? 	
ROB	Well I get cold. Are you saying objectively that you get colder than I do?	
liz	Yeah I think that's probably true. 	
ROB	Why? 	
liz	Because I have no meat on me. 	
ROB	Well neither do I. 	
LIZ	You do. And I'm not having a blanket over my legs that's one cliché too far. 	
ROB	Oh go on have a tartan blanket.	
liz	No. 	
ROB	With a few Cup-a-Soup stains and a thermos flask resting on it. 	
liz	No. But what we should do actually you should come out with me one day when I'm trying to park in a blue badge space because the best thing... 	
ROB	Well what an invitation.	
LIZ	I know!	
ROB	I was going to go to LA but that's cancelled. 	
liz	Stick with me, kid. 	
ROB	Yeah I'll go far. 	
LIZ	You'll see London by blue badge spaces 'cause I know where they all are.	
ROB	Yeah I think I'm busy. 	
liz	It's great sport. No it's like hunting or like a treasure hunt or something like that. I get very competitive you're going round, you know, Trafalgar Square and you know that there's a hidden space being like the National Gallery and only you... 	
ROB	Is there?	
liz	Oh you see now I've told people. Damn me. 	
ROB	There's an argument taking place right now between five people who have just descended upon it. 	
liz	Oh God yeah it's gets like a Western do you know what I mean? You see these two motobility cars edging in for one space it's nasty.
[Jingle: Narrow casting to the scroungers, benefit cheats and idle left wingers of the UK the Ouch Talk Show goes out twice a month, not even on proper broadcast radio but over the internet. Go to bbc.co.uk/podcast click on entertainment and you'll find us in there.]	
ROB	Thank you very much for your emails. Obviously if you do want to get in touch it's ouch@bbc.co.uk. We had a response from last month's discussion which was Podcast 65 I believe, fact fans. This was a discussion we had about family favouritism and we were asking if parents give more attention to their disabled child at the expense of their non disabled brothers or sisters. Con Van der Han from the Netherlands he says living with a disabled younger sibling is difficult but it makes you more independent early on. Acquiesce with that? 	
LIZ	Well you see they've got a disabled sibling haven't they so I don't know. Did my brother have to grow up, mature - he's not that mature now to be perfectly honest, so I'm not sure that's true. But you have you got disabled...?	
ROB	Yeah my sister I don't know we... 	
LIZ	She's not disabled though is she?	
ROB	No, no. And we hated each other up until about the age when we were both in our late 20s so it was really, really difficult to even remember because we had such totally separate lives. I was such a vile, spotty little rebel and she was such a goody two shoes it was like we were from a different species. 	
LIZ	Because I was wondering if it raises the bar, do you know what I mean? Does it kind of like if you've got... 	
ROB	It raised the tension bar that's for sure. But I think that would have been there disability or no disability. 	
liz	And most importantly, are you getting more in the Will than she is because that was what we were discussing?	
ROB	Yeah I get the ashtray, she get's the geometry set. So we've had some other emails as well. Alexander Rise has written to us. "I'm so glad I found your website etc. It makes me feel part of a community and a creative one at that." 	
liz	Well I didn't realise we gave that.	
ROB	No. Well what's the last creative thing you did? 	
LIZ	Don't ask me that. This, this, this is what I've done.	
ROB	She doesn't know, listeners.	
LIZ	Rebecca Kay, "I'm a pod subscriber and met Liz" that's me, "at Raspberry at Blue Coat."	
ROB	What's Raspberry?	
LIZ	It was a play, it was a play by Fittings and it was on at Bluecoat Chamber in Liverpool. 	
ROB	Yeah what's Fittings?	
LIZ	Fittings is a theatre company, Gary Robson, we've had him as a guest on the podcast he's the head of it I think, it was a play about Ian Drury. 	
ROB	I see. And Rebecca Kay do you actually remember this encounter?	
LIZ	Anyway, Rebecca, lovely to meet you. 	
ROB	We've had one in from John Beatty, he says, "I really like to read the Ouch website for the serious and the funny articles."	
LIZ	Okay so a bit of both there - wants the serious and the funny. And Larry Pat, "Hi, I'm new to Ouch just wanted to say I love you all." Thank you. A bit of a love fest this month, very appreciative of that. Also very excited that so many new people are coming to the site and I wonder how they hear about it don't you? 	
ROB	Well it's... what do you mean you wonder it's Facebook innit' and stuff like that.	
LIZ	Do you think that's what's doing it, is it...	
ROB	I don't think it's carrier pigeons, I'd like to think it is.	
LIZ	This social media malarkey that's what it is. 	
ROB	Well I've always thought the internet is going to be quite big and I think it looks like my prediction's come true. 	
LIZ	Give it a few years, I'm not convinced. 	
ROB	It will catch on I'm sure of it. And at that awkward juncture proving what technophobes we are, right someone who is definitely not a luddite somebody who has technology prowess it's our... very vital pivotal original member of the Ouch production team, Emma Tracey is with us. Hello Emma. 	
Emma	Wow, thank you very much. 	
ROB	You are pivotal, you are vital. 	
Emma	Ah I don't know what to say, that's very kind of you. But I am definitely a sort of a blindy nerd so yes I do like technology.	
ROB	Well I was going to say pivotal until this month when you decided to try and arrange an interview for us and they haven't turned up which is why you're here. So you've let your standards slip a little bit, Emma. 	
Emma	Well yes. 	
LIZ	She's crying now, Rob. Crying now Rob that's not very sensitive. 	
ROB	It needed to be said. 	
Emma	Unfortunately we were supposed to have a guest but they haven't turned up for whatever reason so you've got me instead. 	
LIZ	The thing is you know what disabled people are like, do you know what I mean? They don't turn up or they're worried about their benefits getting chopped so they don't turn up for things I mean that's what's happening. 	
Emma	Well can I just say it's the first time in five years... 	
liz	That's pretty good going isn't it? 	
Emma	So I think as a record it's not too bad. 	
LIZ	But it's a plus because we've got you in here and actually there is something that I've been wondering because I was sent this thing by a mate of mine by email and it was about if you could talk to your 16 year old self, if you could go back in time to when you were 16, knowing what you know at the age you are now what advice would you give yourself? Emma, how old are you now, do you mind me asking? 	
Emma	I'm 28 now. Oh there's so many things I would say to my 16 year old self. Be nicer to your parents would be one of them because at the end of the day my parents were really great but I shouted at them a lot when I was 16. 	
ROB	What about? 	
Emma	Oh everything how life wasn't fair and all that sort of stuff.	
ROB	I didn't ask to be born you know?	
Emma	Yeah exactly and that sort of thing. But actually, to be honest, when I was 16 I was having a really good time. I'd just gone to mainstream school from blindy boarding school so I was having a great time; I was out a lot, I had friends and things. But I think what I would say to my 16 year old self would be, "Get your mobility sorted out. Get a bit independent" because I, until very recently, really relied on arms and taxis and lifts and people, I've relied on people because I didn't have mobility confidence with my cane or whatever. If I could talk to my 16 year old self I would say get that done before university and you'll have a much better time. 	
ROB	But would your 16 year old self have listened?	
Emma	Do you know what no one never really drilled that into me because I was... 	
ROB	That's the best thing about being that age is being 16 and thinking you know everything, it's a glorious condition.	
Emma	Yeah. 	
ROB	You're that deluded. 	
Emma	I think I was just so excited to be mainstream and to actually have friends who could see. I mean I always had a couple of friends who could see, but to have friends who I could hang out with that was... the cane, you know the things that made me different were the least of my concerns. And I'm glad I didn't have a dog when I was 16 but I really could have done with one when I was 18 and I think although I said for years it would curtail my good life, actually it would have made a huge difference. The other thing, obviously, I would have said to myself would be "You will get a boyfriend but just being a blind teenager is not conducive..."	
ROB	That's something that you genuinely thought was an unattainable concept having a boyfriend?	
Emma	Sort of yeah, kind of. I kind of didn't... I thought it would be a long, long time because boys, 16 year old boys like to... do not it's not cool to have a girl holding on to your arm all the time. And it's not, you know, just having a girlfriend is more about just kissing in the disco and that sort of thing it's not about kind of being gentle and kind to each other. And so I didn't have one until I was 20 maybe. 	
ROB	Liz, boyfriend unattainable as a 16 year old. Was it something that was mere fantasy?	
liz	Oh God what would I... you know it wouldn't be a letter it would be a three volume tome I would send myself I think at 16. I think the main thing would be "You won't believe what's going to happen" I really think it would be that. It would be "You will get through this." Because for me at 16 I actually wasn't very well. It was just a disability thing like a static thing "I can't move very much" it was actually health wise I wasn't very well. And things were just grim. School all I did was study, I was at at all girls school so the question about boyfriends, you know, absolutely not because I was dropped off at school by my Mum, you know what I mean? I didn't even go to school fulltime, it was part time. And all I did was study. And all my teachers were like, "You've got to think vocationally, be a lawyer or something like that because what else can someone like you do?" Do you know what I mean? 	
ROB	That's helpful. 	
liz	I thought that. Absolutely. So I think because that was you know 16 I'm now 38 so that's half my life ago, and now the things that I do, where I live, I moved to London I never would have imagined that, that I'm married, never would have imagined that, that I do what I do totally off the radar. And it was so far removed. So I think that's it. And I would have said, "Do less physio have more fun." 	
ROB	I was going to say, because you don't, from what you've just said there, you don't come across as somebody who was maybe a really angry, bitter 16 year old you just sounded like you were bored and miserable. 	
LIZ	I was bored... miserable actually I was very sad I think. I was just like this is just grim and I couldn't see a way out. The only way of escaping was to go to uni. I've got great parents, it wasn't about them particularly, but I just think none of us had much hope. And that can be a bit of a corny word but we just didn't know. I didn't know other disabled people. I went to mainstream school.	
ROB	Would you have wanted to would have made things better?	
liz	That's the problem I didn't... 	
ROB	If you had a load of disabled mates?	
liz	Only in the sense, it's a good question because I didn't really want anything to do with them but at the same time they would have helped me realise you can have, you know, disabled people that I know now they had mates at 16, they had boyfriends, girlfriends at 16, you know they were having a bit more of a wild time than I was. Already hearing Emma, Emma was having far more fun that I was at 16 kind of thing in some respects.	
Emma	Yeah. You've put me to shame, to be honest. 	
liz	No you were having fun and that's my, you know... 	
Emma	But it if helps I hung out with the... I did hang out not the geeks but I hung out with the studiers because I was one, to be honest. I went out every Saturday night but then I really paid attention in class and things. So I did have friends without boyfriends but you know you want everything anyway don't you? And I had friends who didn't have boyfriends until after I did. But it was just something that I thought I couldn't have because of being blind. 	
liz	And when I say the physio thing what I'm thinking of is I think I so at that point thought life will only get better if I spend two hours a day, an hour in the morning an hour at night or whatever, doing physio i.e., walking and being better rather than I can be as I am, a wheelchair user, and have a good life. So that's why I say actually enjoy life more and don't spend as much time on therapy that didn't go anywhere kind of thing. So, Rob, you know you had a bit of a different approach to disability I always get the sense of in growing up.	
ROB	Yeah well, well 16 was, yeah I mean 16 was a great time that was kind of the year, 1994, was the year I discovered pubs started serving me, I started smoking and drinking and going to gigs and having a lot of freedom and that was great. But it was also the year I got expelled from my school for being... culmination of all...	
liz	You were expelled?	
ROB	Yeah a culmination... well I was asked to leave and I did. 	
liz	Politely asked. 	
ROB	Not that politely I must say. 	
Emma	Why?	
ROB	Just a culmination of things; smoking, drinking, skiving, talking back to teachers, more skiving, refusing to wear uniform, setting fire to hay bales - all kinds of things. 	
liz	Hay bales?	
ROB	Yeah hay bales. 	
Emma	I know people with albinism who really it wasn't part of their lives particularly when they were 16 was it?	
ROB	It was but only in the sense that I just felt I'm going to try... I'll just be... I'm happy to be the town clown you know in terms of I still carried on playing football even though I was totally useless, and diving into goalposts and cracking my head open quite a lot and things like that. I was totally happy to be there because I always felt... because I was quite a noisy show-off all of my friends they all knew about my disability but they... I could kind of gave them their lead, if I find this funny therefore you find it funny and that's how it worked really. But I think if I could go back I would say to my 16 year old self, "Use your disability more to your advantage" because at that point I felt that I couldn't really ever reveal it in terms of telling teachers about it or in terms of applying for universities, starting to apply for university I didn't say anything, which was really stupid of me. Because all of the things that I could have, would have really been useful like getting extra times in exams, you get like 45 minutes extra if you're visually impaired or blind for A-levels and all that kind of thing it would have really worked in my favour. So yeah I wish I'd kind of been a bit more open about it even in terms of getting like a bus pass and getting some DLA and all these things I was entitled to I didn't wake up to that until a little bit later. So yeah I think I could have made my life a lot easier on myself if I'd actually embraced my disability and used it to my advantage rather than being a little bit embarrassed about going down the route of claiming benefits, which I didn't do. 	
LIZ	[Jingle: Rob?
What?
Don't you think disability's so misunderstood?
Sorry?
I was just saying don't you think disability's so misunderstood?
Disa-what-a-ty?
Disability.
Oh sweet Jesus, don't make me think about cripples.
bbc.co.uk/ouch demystifying disability.]
	
ROB	Joining us via Skype from Florida now it's J P Corwyn. Hello JP.	
JP	Hi, how're doing Rob?	
ROB	Sorry about the oil spill by the way. I just feel we should wrap that up.	
JP	Yeah I've heard that before. I've heard there's a lot of ((sorryness sic)) going around. You know we'll accept the apology and just be glad.	
liz	We have to apologise.	
JP	Besides there are things to scrub now.  We can clean.	
liz	It was an excuse. 	
JP	We get bored on the golf course, we like to clean things it's a hobby.	
ROB	Yeah think of it as a spring clean exactly. 	
JP	Exactly.	
ROB	So tell us a little bit about you, obviously you're a musician, you're blind, you're based in Florida. What more can you add to that rather terse description? 	
JP	Wait, wait, wait I'm blind? When was someone going to tell me this stuff? Next you're going to tell me my hair's too long. Let's see how it is. So music's what I do, it's what I do fulltime. I'm very, very lucky, I'm very fortunate. And there's a lot going on between touring, I've done some charity things I'd like to do more of those, I've not hit the UK or any place overseas yet that's on my list of things to do but as I'm sure you must have seen and heard before from the other very, very talented musicians that have come on the show, to DIY to completely do it yourself is kind of a... It's all about the deep pockets that you don't have. 	
liz	But you've written and EP two full length albums already. 	
JP	Yes. 	
LIZ	I like this the title's In Plain Sight and The White Cane Conspiracy. Does blindness come into your songs or just the album titles then? 	
JP	Well as you've only just told me I'm blind I would have to say it's a fluke. 	
ROB	He needs a bit of time to work on some new material now. 	
LIZ	Oh sorry. 	
JP	No I heard this recently you had two very esteemed business women on and I heard it said that blindness can kind of be a door opener, or any sort of handicap or disability can kind of be a gimmick, for lack of a better term.  	
ROB	It's your USP there. 	
JP	Yeah, yeah that's exactly it. Everyone needs every opportunity is a networking opportunity, every conversation you have, every minute of the day bumping into someone at the market it doesn't matter it's going to potentially turn into something - you never know who you know. And I've always maintained that I may not be... my bio writer said the same thing, "You're not quite Stevie Wonder blind" well no that's true I'm not Stevie Wonder blind... 	
ROB	Which is the benchmark against which all other blind people... 	
liz	Is that like really blind to be Stevie Wonder blind?	
JP	Yeah exactly. 	
liz	Okay. 	
JP	Exactly. There's no drivey drivey. Rob, you should be familiar with the whole legally blind thing, you're not quite totally blind after all, you've said that several times. 	
ROB	Yeah I like to drill that into people's heads. 	
JP	Well you know it's safe to drill into their heads because they get very confused don’t they? 	
LIZ	Do you think the more blind you are the more musically successful you are?	
jp	Well I don't know that I'd call it that high as a benchmark I mean I'm not willing to put my eyes out the rest of the way just to see if the theory's accurate. 	
LIZ	Just wondering. 	
JP	And it doesn't matter how much of a dare you make that, that's not on my list. But yeah I think there's, I don't know if Rob, if you've experienced this before but people they're unfamiliar with the less obvious handicaps. And so I think if you're fully deaf, fully blind, a quadriplegic, paraplegic whatever the case may be if it's something that's more familiar it's easier for people to accept, categorise, digest and move forward. 	
LIZ	So JP you have a very American sound to your music. So we've thrown together... 	
Jp	I've heard that.	
Liz	... together a few questions here especially for an American based on everything that we've ever learnt via our TV set okay? 	
JP	Uh oh!	
Liz	Okay?	
JP	This should be good. 	
liz	So, white cane or guide dog?	
jp	Guide dog. 	
ROB	Candy or fruit?	
JP	Fruit.	
LIZ	Was the 1969 moon landing real or fake?	
JP	I didn't see it. 	
LIZ	Customers who like JP Corwyn also like... 	
JP	Oh Shine Down, Angio Aparo, Pearl Jam, Creed, Athlete I hope. 	
ROB	If I was the President I would... complete that sentence.	
JP	Wow really is that what we're going with? 	
ROB	If I was the President I would... quick fire.	
JP	If I was the President I would wonder who the heck JP Corwyn is and go and find out. 	
LIZ	Raccoons or chipmunks? 	
JP	Chipmunks.	
ROB	Like a rhinestone cowboy or like a rolling stone? 	
JP	Definitely like a rolling stone. 	
LIZ	Jaws or voice over?	
JP	Voice over. 	
LIZ	Oh little niche blind screen read a question apparently we just threw in. 	
ROB	And finish the sentence, finally, 'we built this city on...'	
JP	The BBC radio. 	
LIZ	Ooh!	
ROB	Thank you very much, JP, God he's so good. So how do listeners find out more about you? 	
JP	Best and fastest way to find me is at JP Corwyn, with a Y, that's jpcorwyn.net or just use google	
ROB	So hold on there a second, we're just going to do our quick roll call then we'll be back to play out a track from you. 	
LIZ	The production team on today's show were Damon Rose, Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey and Neil Pembleton was our studio manager. Email the show with anything you like at ouch@bbc.co.uk join our Facebook group or find us on Twitter at bbcouch. 	
ROB	Until next time goodbye and cue JP. 	
JP	Yeah this is Find a Reason from the new record The White Cane Conspiracy. 
[Playing music]