Ouch Talk Show #46 – December 2009
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

[Jingle 
Merry Christmas! MERRY CHRISTMAS! 
Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho]

LIZ	It’s the time of year when people give money to the poor and disadvantaged like us, but for the next hour we’ll be the ones to give. Disabled people giving our all to help warm and cheer you, perhaps even more than your special winter heating allowance for the VULNERABLE.	
MAT	Merry Christmas one and all! 	
LIZ	Erm, where’s the theme tune? 
[Jingle 
O U C H spells Ouch]
Hello, I’m Liz Carr.	
MAT	And I’m Mat Fraser and it’s Christmas time!	
LIZ	((0:01:13.7?)) no I am. 	
MAT	I know I can see. 	
LIZ	Ridiculously. I’ve done all my Christmas shopping. 	
MAT	Oh God I haven’t even started mine yet. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
MAT	Women and men eh the eternal differences. 	
LIZ	Eh, eh? 	
MAT	Erm, why don’t we cue some MUSIC? 	
LIZ	[piano playing Winter Wonderland] 
On this month’s show I’m dreaming of a white news correspondent, yes. Freelance albino Rob Crossan joins us in a few minutes to upset the festive mood with trashy disability stories from newspapers and the web. 	
MAT	Christmas is about friends isn’t it and we’re inviting a couple of Ouch’s mates over for a spot of eggnog and mince pies. Joining us soon are The Office and El Dorado actress, Julie Fernandez.  	
LIZ	Wasn’t she in Extras? 	
MAT	I don’t know was she in Extras? 	
LIZ 	Oh I get mixed up they all look the same. 	
MAT	The Office, Extras she was in one of them and... 	
LIZ	Oh right. 	
MAT	... she’s very high profile. 	
LIZ	Yes. 	
MAT	And so is Kiruna Stamell from Channel Four’s Cast Offs we’re going to be seeing her and talking to her later. Christmas, ladies and gentlemen, lest we forget is also about the children and they’ll be reminiscing about their disabled childhood of Christmases past.  	
LIZ	And somewhere in this rich plum pudding mix we’ve been promised a few party games by the producer. What a pip! 	
MAT	Oh how jolly ripping! 	
LIZ	Stayed tuned for that. 	
MAT	And you can hear her playing behind us now, that’s her playing behind us sorry got that bit wrong - pianist Abbi Baker.	
ABBI	Hello. 	
MAT	Hi Abbi. 	
LIZ	Hello Abbi. 	
MAT	She’ll be accompanying us as we sing a carol to end the show. 	
LIZ	It’s almost too much isn’t it? 	
MAT	I know. 	
LIZ	Oh we’re on the web as usual at bbc.co.uk/ouch where you can read oodles of articles, talk on our message board and listen to all of the 46 talk shows now in our archive. Do you know that’s almost two days’ worth if you listen to them all back-to-back? And to think, Mat, normally BBC series get canned after six episodes - aren’t we lucky? 	
MAT	That was so beautiful. 	
LIZ	Do you remember Christmas talk shows of past? 	
MAT	Oh God the heady highlights, do you remember we had the entire BBC radio theatre at our disposal. 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	But two years ago - was it two? 	
LIZ	Yeah. Cast of thousands weren’t they? 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	((0:03:14.8?)) you remember Rob was in his... 	
MAT	And the champagne. 	
LIZ	... in his Christmas suit. We had Derek Paravicini, we had guests, what have we got this year? 	
MAT	Well we’ve got the lovely Abbi. 	
LIZ	Well yes Abby of course. Absolutely good to have you onboard. Well we’ve also got six Christmas sound effects. 	
MAT	Oh that’s right we have. We’ve got some stonkers!  	
LIZ	Yeah we have. 	
MAT	I’m getting a bit cold. 	
LIZ	Ooh, ooh!	
MAT	Ooh I’m a bit cold. 	
LIZ	Ooh!	
MAT	Ooh let’s huddle up by the fireplace shall we. 	
LIZ	Oh the fireplace. 	
MAT	Nice hmm. [fire crackling] Ah that’s better. Oh yes it was quite a walk wasn’t it. 	
LIZ	And if anybody’s listening who’s been affected by burns we’re really apologetic about that. 	
MAT	It’s just all my socks are steaming, Liz, look. 	
LIZ	Aren’t they? 	
MAT	My feet are burning, Liz, get me away from the fire. 	
LIZ	Oh move away, move away. Have you got no feeling in them? 	
MAT	Not anymore. 	
LIZ	They might need to amputate. 	
MAT	Okay. Cheery little...  	
LIZ 	Okay anyway... 	
MAT	... thing aren’t you at Christmas? 	
LIZ	So we’ll be able to bring them in throughout the show. 	
MAT	Hm, hm. 	
LIZ	That’s nice. 	
MAT	Gosh it’s awfully windy outside isn’t it? 	
LIZ	Ooh what kind? 	
MAT	It’s like a [wind blowing] it looks like a blizzard out there, Liz. Thank God we’re all safe and warm in the nice roasty, toasty little cottage that we are in now.	
LIZ	I think that might be the Christmas tumbleweed. 	
MAT	Oh God. 	
LIZ	It’s like now. 	
MAT	Yes. Anyway moving on phew! So what’ve you been up to girl? 	
LIZ	Well I’ve been quite busy about you know I’ve been shopping, I’m very excited about Christmas. What are you doing, what are you doing for Christmas this year? 	
MAT	Well I am doing Christmas this year. I don’t know whether you or readers remember but I didn’t do Christmas before. 	
LIZ	No what’s happened to the old “Well I don’t do Christmas”?	
MAT	Well Julie, the new girlfriend, she looked at me really rather unimpressed when I announced that I don’t do Christmas, she went “Yes you do”. 	
LIZ	She’s American we should add.	
MAT	Yes. And that’s the end of that. 	
LIZ	Right. 	
MAT	So we’re very much doing Christmas. I’m going to be having Christmas with my ex-wife, her new boyfriend, my mother and my new girlfriend and a new young flatmate. 	
LIZ	Oh life of 2009. 	
MAT	It’s modern urban living. 	
LIZ	How times have changed. 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	And what will you be eating? 	
MAT	Well I’ll be eating vegetarian festive nut loaf as is traditional... 	
LIZ	Mm, mm, mm.	
MAT	... in my family. My mum makes a gorgeous yummy best nut loaf in the whole world, ladies and gentlemen. What about you, what are you going to be eating?  	
LIZ	I am... I’ll be at my mum and dad’s. 	
MAT	Therefore? 	
LIZ	There will be the three of us. 	
MAT	Hm-mm. 	
LIZ	There will probably, they probably won’t even both with a turkey now it’ll probably be a small chicken for the three no they will. 	
MAT	The turkey would be inappropriately ostentatious wouldn’t it? 	
LIZ	It would, it would. 	
MAT	For a mere family of three. 	
LIZ	It is like a Christmas Carol round at ours sometimes. So... 	
MAT	Are you like the Cratchit’s and which one... oh of course yes. 	
LIZ	But I’m doing a lot of the Christmassy I’m doing Sing-along Christmas Carols at the Albert Hall, I’m going... 	
MAT	What?	
LIZ	... ice-skating.	
MAT	You’ve been booked? 	
LIZ	No. 	
MAT	To perform at the Albert Hall? 	
LIZ	Well... 	
MAT	To sing Christmas Carols?	
LIZ	No, no it’s not a gig, Mat, it’s not work. 	
MAT	Oh sorry. 	
LIZ	You can see that greed you’re like, “Oh you’ve got work doing Christmas Carols, why wasn’t I invited?” Oh I think you’ve been quite busy enough lately Mat it’s fine let me have my moment in the audience. 	
MAT	No I want you to have your moment in the audience. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
MAT	Hm at my show. 	
LIZ	I will be there. So yes very much looking forward to that but very quiet, very quiet this year. 	
MAT	You bought your loved one a present? 	
LIZ	Yes. 	
MAT	And what’ve you got her? 	
LIZ	Do you know what? 	
MAT	She’s not going to hear this is she? 	
LIZ	I haven’t bought her one I’ve bought her like a little something for every day of advent. 	
MAT	Oh. 	
LIZ	So she’s got something from the 1st to the 25th. 	
MAT	How many days is... oh how many days is that I don’t know. 	
LIZ	It’s from the 1st. 	
MAT	19 days. 24 days. 	
LIZ	24 but she’s actually got 25 presents. 	
MAT	Have you got a special themed one for your particular lifestyle choice? 	
LIZ	I’m not sure what you’re talking about? Oh because we like cooking. 	
MAT	Yes that’s it. 	
LIZ	Yes, yes I do yeah I have lot of little things, very cute. 	
MAT	I’ve got a special little advent calendar. 	
LIZ	I don’t actually want to know... 	
MAT	No. 	
LIZ	... thanks. I don’t want to know what you’d have in yours thanks very much. 	
MAT	Little flipper people celebrating Christmas. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	You know and it doesn’t matter that it’s Christmas we still get our Christmassy emails. 	
MAT	Good. 	
LIZ	Oh yes. Love it, love it. “Hi Mat and Liz,” this is from Melanie Sheldon in Aberdeenshire. 	
MAT	[Scottish accent] Hello! 	
LIZ	That’s what she said. “I’m laughing so much this is very hard to write this. Why I hear you say? I’ve just clicked on the link for Mat’s song Cripples at Christmas... 	
MAT	Ah!	
LIZ	Oh remember that. 	
MAT	That’s nice. 	
LIZ	And nearly fell out of my wheelchair I was laughing so much it was so funny. Please, please, please...” okay there’s a zillion please, please, please. What’s that I hear? 	
MAT	Oh aye!	
LIZ	What’s that?	
MAT	Who’s that? I’m a rather good singer. 
[I am disabled	
LIZ	Go on sing along a bit. 	
MAT	But would you put on a fairy for me]	
LIZ	She’s thinks she’s the coolest crip under the Christmas tree, Melanie you probably are, and if anybody else wants to listen to it, it’s fine it’s still there, it can be downloaded from Ouch. Go to the bottom of the latest podcast page, you might even be staring at it right now and click on the cripples at Christmas link and put it on your iPod and sing along in the middle of a public place. 	
MAT	Hm like I was this morning on a packed train to Waterloo. I’ve got one here from ((Emms?)) Coombes in Plymouth. “Yo!” I haven’t heard that since the ‘80s. “I’ve started a disabled led inclusive theatre company in Plymouth yeah for 13 to 25 years olds. Boy I had a brain haemorrhage and a stroke in 1996 I’m now 30 and I believe in getting them while they’re young, informing people that there are beautiful disabled people role models in the arts world. I’m a new listener to the show but it’s made me chuckle. Big up yourselves you beautiful crips.” 	
LIZ	Oh nice one you beautiful crips. 	
MAT	Thanks Emms. 	
LIZ	Thank you. Mary Footwain in the USA, “Hi Mat and Liz, I love you both. Have you thought about doing the talk show more than once a month? Please, please please” there’s lots of pleases this month wow! 	
MAT	It would kill us. 	
LIZ	Have we thought... it would kill the producer. 	
MAT	Yes actually I’d quite like it wouldn’t you? 	
LIZ	It would kill the budget so I think it’s unlikely but thank you for wanting it. 	
MAT	I don’t mind taking a half fee. I’ll do it for a fiver. 	
LIZ	Anyway, hello Rob. Look... 	
MAT	Rob!	
LIZ	... who’s joined us? 	
MAT	Hello darling. How are you? 	
LIZ	Would you like to pull a Christmas cracker?	
MAT	Let’s crack one off together. 	
ROB	Oh go on then. 	
MAT	Let’s just reach over Liz’s face and we’ll just both crack one off together, here we go. 	
LIZ	Oh I feel so special. 	
ROB	Oh got it hey!	
MAT	Thank you. 	
ROB	You want to know what’s inside - is it a golden Faberge egg? 	
LIZ	No. 	
ROB	It is... it’s a joke which is what do you call... oh it’s a disability themed joke. 	
MAT	Hooray!	
ROB	What do you call a blind reindeer? 	
LIZ	What? 	
MAT	No idea.	
ROB	Oh he’s good. 	
MAT	Oooooohhhhhhhhhh! 	
ROB	But what is this with Mat claiming that he doesn’t do Christmas but yet a) he seems to know all disability festive Christmas jokes; and b) you recorded a Christmas single. 	
LIZ	And yet he doesn’t like Christmas. 	
ROB	Oh I hate Christmas bah humbug. 	
LIZ	Hm. Hm. Well Rob you’re here for the news but please stay with us while we read them. 	
MAT	Yeah we’ve got one more email here from Hazel Berwick. She says, “As a podcast ADDICT I’ve long been a fang of Ouch” or even a fan not a fang that’s Dracula “purely because it’s brilliantly funny. I also love listening to the In Touch programme that’s for blind people on Radio 4” yes we knew “and I find both programmes really educational. Then in July this year I had to go ‘on the sick’ and now I’m on the path of becoming registered disabled myself. Arthritis then a prolapsed cervical disk no less.”`	
LIZ	Thank you for the detail. 	
MAT	Nice one. 	
LIZ	We like that. 	
MAT	“I now continue to listen to Ouch from a completely different perspective but have stopped listening to In Touch because I don’t want to jinx myself. May I ask you if frequently you have found this on your able-bodied listeners?” Well it’s funny you should say that, Hazel Berwick, but yes. 	
LIZ	Rob himself was actually very tanned before he started to do the podcast. 	
ROB	And now look at me. 	
LIZ	Look at you. 	
MAT	I know. I know. 	
LIZ	A shadow. 	
ROB	Transparent. 	
MAT	I actually visibly saw Abigail our pianist walk in quite sightedly into the BBC, by the time she got to the top of the stairs she needed help. And by the time she came into the studio she had a guide dog. 	
LIZ	So our people listening to the podcast and becoming disabled because they’re listening? 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Is it that they’re falling off their chairs it’s so funny. 	
MAT	Yes or off the front of the platform onto the rails that blind people often do.	
LIZ	Yeah or poking their eyes out because they want to join the gang. 	
MAT	Hm. 	
LIZ	Maybe. 	
MAT	God are we that trendy and cool? Have we reinterpreted the frame of disability to the extent that people want to cripple themselves to be in our gang? 	
ROB	It’s a long question with a short answer - yes. 	
LIZ	Rob good to see you, what have you been up to, how have you been? 	
ROB	I’ve been okay. Yeah been off on my merry travels as per usual. And I've got to tell you a little story... 	
LIZ	Stuff’s happened to you hasn’t it? 	
ROB	... which I thought would amuse you. Stuff has happened. 	
MAT	You look different. 	
ROB	Well I’m a little bit traumatised. I was in South Africa two weeks ago. And two incidents happened to me: the first one I decided rather stupidly with my eyesight to go on a bicycle tour around Soweto. Lost my tour guide; he turned one way and I turned the other and I realised I was in Africa’s largest township on a bicycle with no money and no phone and, obviously, with my eyesight getting worse by the minute. But I think in the end people did help me. But I think honestly they kind of thought mugging him is just too easy. It’s like kicking...	
MAT	Yeah well look at that... 	
ROB	... ((0:11:54.8?)) in a wheelchair.	
MAT	... poor Albino. 	
ROB	Exactly we can’t mug him it’s just too obvious. 	
LIZ	But we’ll boil him up instead. 	
ROB	Yeah. 	
MAT	God we have them all come out today don’t we. 	
ROB	And then secondly I was on a remote beach with somebody up on the west coast of South Africa, and this girl went into the back of her car, the boot of the car to try and get something out, she thought that I was next to her kind of rummaging through to try and find some towels or something. She looked to her right and it turned out that it was actually a baboon that was rummaging through the boot. So she when proceeded to have a tug-of-war over my Harrington jacket with this baboon. We ran into the car and drove off; I looked behind me the baboon was chasing us and I realised that the baboon had half of its foot missing. This disabled baboon gave us a hell of a lot of grief but he moves at quite a fast pace for having half of a foot missing.  	
LIZ	It’s the fact that you and who you were with were actually wrestling him for your jacket. 	
ROB	She was a trooper, she knows how much that Harrington jacket means to me. And actually what was the baboon going to do with it, there’s no mods in baboon world. 	
MAT	Maybe he was going to pay for a foot corrective surgery. 	
ROB	What with the Harrington jacket. 	
MAT	With the Harrington jacket. 	
LIZ	Ebay it. 	
MAT	Poor guy didn’t realise that it’s okay to be disabled. Okay, so look you got some really weird news as usual for us. What is this about learning is to get your training shoe on again. 	
ROB	Yes that’s right. Apparently for the athletes with a intellectual disability are to be reinstated into the Paralympics. 	
MAT	Oh they’re not going to have the Special Olympics anymore then? 	
ROB	It’s intellectually disabled Olympics or intellectually disabled Olympians will be allowed to compete for the first time in ten years. 	
LIZ	Because they’ve been banned. 	
ROB	Exactly Liz, they were banned in the Sydney 2000 Olympics as somebody infiltrated the Spanish basketball team and realised that out of the... people ((that’s with?)) intellectual disabilities only two of them actually met the grade. And in fact some of them were engineers and a few of them had university degrees - very impressive if your IQ is under 75. So yeah the good news is for people with intellectual disabilities is that yeah it’s game on. 	
MAT	Wow!	
ROB	Game on for gold. 	
MAT	Is that where they got the idea for The Ringer that film with Johnny Knoxville about somebody who pretends to have an intellectual disability. 	
?	((0:14:03.5?)) 	
ROB	Well how long ago was that film? 	
MAT	I don’t know I’m just wondering, apparently it was we’ve just heard from the producer. 	
LIZ	We’ve heard, we’ve had news from above. 	
MAT	Whoever it was get on with it. 	
LIZ	What you know how much I love disability sports so our second headline ‘I’m a Paralympian... 	
ROB	Oh they’re brave. 	
LIZ	... get me out of here!’	
ROB	Oh this is so brave. I think Mat you would actually appreciate this story just for the pure stubbornness of it as well. A fellow called Kurt Fernley, a Paralympian, who was told by Jetstar Airways that he couldn’t take his own wheelchair through security at Brisbane airport. So he decided to crawl through. He crawled into the toilets and out again and then crawled onto the plane at the end. And apparently Jetstar Airlines have apologised but his quote is fantastic. Ferney he won medals at the Paralympics at Athens and Beijing, he said that the equivalent for an able-bodied person would be having your legs tied together, your pants pulled down and then be carried or pushed through an airport. So if you put it in that perspective I can kind of see what he was getting at.  	
LIZ	Absolutely. But it does give us a good new idea for the next Paralympian sport. 	
ROB	Oh yes - airport crawling. 	
LIZ	Airport crawling.	
MAT	The airport crawl there and he’s cleared customs and the Frenchman’s going like hell for leather. 	
LIZ	Oh he’s taken a detour in duty free - oh unprecedented! 	
ROB	There are 400 Silk Cut under his shoulder how’s he going to do it? 	
LIZ	Oh it’s a handicap. 	
?	((0:15:22.9?))	
MAT	You have another Disability Darwin award for us don’t you? 	
ROB	Yes Disability Darwin award... 	
MAT	I do love this.	
ROB	This is a celebration of the world’s most incompetent attempts to fraudulently claim disability benefit. I love these. Good one from Liverpool this month. Fellow called James Dorman busted for claiming £33,000 worth of disability benefit including seven different cars. Apparently he claimed he had a dodgy leg but he’s actually a trophy winning golfer and he was being filmed, filmed for months on end and they filmed him doing things like climbing ladders and most impressively he was filmed dancing a celebratory jig in front of his children. Yeah fairly lengthy jail sentence and paying £1,000 costs as well as all the money he frauded so ‘fraid it doesn’t work. If you’re going to claim disability benefit don’t play golf. And don’t dance any jigs.  	
MAT	Now what headlines would you liked to have seen though this week? 	
ROB	Yeah the ones that I didn’t see but would have liked to have done were ‘Free antidepressants with every copy of the upcoming Jedward album. 	
MAT	Oh God free ear deafening. Anyway go on. 	
ROB	‘George Foreman unimpressed with Xmas gift rival to his grill the David Blunkett broiler’. And ‘Christmas number one a shoeing for Heather Mills and her version of Jake the Peg’.  	
MAT	Ooh! That would be actually pretty good. 	
ROB	I’d like to hear that. 	
LIZ	I’d buy it. 	
ROB	It’s better than Cripple at Christmas but that’s not saying much is it?	
MAT	No it’s not. But it would be fantastic. 	
ROB	I’m sorry, Mat. 	
MAT	That’s okay. I’m Jake the peg I’m... how could she do it? Anyway we’ll think of that later. So listen, off you go and have your ridiculous thanksgiving dinner.	
ROB	Yes. The entire deep fried turkey. 	
LIZ	But come back and talk with us before the end of the show. After your large ((0:17:26.3?)) 	
MAT	Because he only lives next door, listeners... 	
ROB	In the next cottage along. 	
LIZ	I can see the turkey from here. 	
MAT	See you in a minute, Rob. 	
LIZ	It’s so Christmassy. 	
ROB	Ta-ra. 	
LIZ	Oh and don’t forget everyone thank you for all your emails, all your contributions to the show, you know that you can email us at anytime on ouch@bbc.co.uk that’s ouch@bbc.co.uk or for a laugh childreninneed@bbc.co.uk 
[Jingle:
You’re listening to the Ouch talk show]	
MAT	[fire crackling] Ah ((sighs))	
LIZ	Mat?	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	Go on what were you going to say? 	
MAT	I really miss Top of the Pops, Christmas Top of the Pops...	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	... on BBC2.	
LIZ	It was always on BBC1 wasn’t it? 	
MAT	Yeah and then it was demoted to BBC2 before then they just phased the whole thing out. 	
LIZ	Childhood memories. 	
MAT	I know I loved it. 	
LIZ	((0:18:21.4?)) 	
MAT	I used to love Lonely This Christmas. 	
LIZ	What was your favourite present? 	
MAT	Christmas present? 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	It would either be the first bike, it was probably the first bike, so... 	
LIZ	The first bi--... the first of many. 	
MAT	Well yes because okay so I used to have Christmas with my grandparents a lot of the time because they had more money and a bigger house, so we used to go and do it there. And I was a ten year old boy and like most ten year old boys I wanted a bike but it was a bit of a.... we could get me on a trike but working out how to work an actual bike was a bit difficult. It was like backpedal brake and they were like... and he knew this engineer guy... 	
LIZ	Of course because of the gripping... 	
MAT	Yeah you need opposable digits, the miracle of human evolution - thumbs. So anyway so... but you know all over Europe they use backpedal brakes. Anyway so but my grandpa had an engineer friend who’s mission it became to build me a bike. And he built this really convoluted sort of like double handlebar affair - not quite that if you turned right it went left but it was a bit like that, you know, it was ridiculous. And he had a big back garden with a lawn, you can picture it all with the allotment at the end and the roses at the side and they all stood out there as I took my first little ride up the garden and completely, you know, got the steering completely wrong, fell over arse over tit face straight into the bike, you know, ran in crying because I needed to be comforted by granny and some mince pies. But that was my thing because it was the first moment I ever rode a bike albeit for about three seconds before I fell over. And I was like suddenly free riding my own bicycle just like the other boys. 	
LIZ	Just like everyone else. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Oh that’s... ah. 	
MAT	What was yours? 	
LIZ	Well I’d never thought that you couldn’t ride a bike, never thought about that. Oh before we talk about that, let’s actually let’s get one of our friends, one of our Ouch friends... 	
MAT	Oh lets. 	
LIZ	We’ve got on the line actress and presenter, Julie Fernandez. Hello Julie. 	
JULIE	Hello chaps. 	
MAT	Julie, hello. 	
JULIE	Hello. 	
LIZ	Good to have you... 	
JULIE	God you are a scream the pair of you. 	
LIZ	Oh don’t... 	
JULIE	I’ve been giggling away back here you know. 	
MAT	All the way from Peterborough you can hear us. 	
JULIE	All the way, all the way I’ve got super-duper hearing.  	
LIZ	Julie, would you like to pull a cracker with me? 	
JULIE	Go on then. 	
LIZ	Okay, okay. Me and Mat are going to do it sshh but let’s ((0:20:24.4?)) okay... 	
MAT	Pretend make the noise. 	
JULIE	What colour is it? 	
LIZ	It’s red with Father Christmas on it. Okay. Ye-hey! 	
JULIE	Hey! 	
LIZ	Oh is there a joke inside? Yes let me tell it. 	
MAT	You wear the hat Julie. 	
JULIE	Okay. 	
LIZ	You look great, you're a hat person. 	
JULIE	See it’s on. 	
MAT	Oh it looks good on you. 	
LIZ	What do you call a fly... 	
JULIE	Thank you. 	
LIZ	... with no wings? 	
JULIE	Erm...	
LIZ	Go on, you know it. 	
JULIE	No but I do know the one about what do you call a fly who hits the windscreen and the last thing they... no that’s too rude to put on. What do you call a fly with no wings? Bored. 	
LIZ	A walk. 	
JULIE	A walk. 	
MAT	Oh my God that is so bad. 	
JULIE	Who writes these things? It’s terrible. 	
MAT	That is the worst, that’s almost the worse Christmas cracker joke I’ve ever heard in my life and that is saying something. 	
JULIE	You know what you’re not wrong. 	
LIZ	So, Julie, you were... we were talking about childhood memories as disabled children yeah? 	
JULIE	Yeah. 	
LIZ	You were at Special School when you were younger weren’t you? 	
JULIE	I do love that word ‘Special School’ ahh. 	
LIZ	What do you think what would you call instead? 	
JULIE	Oh I don’t know really - school that facilitates and sorts out disabled people... I don’t know. 	
LIZ	Oh Special School then. 	
JULIE	Special School yeah. 	
MAT	Yeah that’s a lot snappier. 	
JULIE	((Flippin’ hell?)) 	
LIZ	Last Christmas you had great Christmases there. 	
JULIE	Yeah it was brilliant. And the one I went to Lord Mayor Treloar’s School and College which is an absolutely brilliant top notch boarding school for disabled ((0:21:42.8?)) 	
MAT	We know Treloar’s on this programme. 	
JULIE	See and so I’m a Treloarian and we used to have the most brilliant Christmases the whole works everything. The turkey and the crackers and the parties and disco dancing and it was brilliant. 	
MAT	Was the Christmas experience for a Treloarian Victorian? 	
JULIE	That rhymed you’re so clever. 	
MAT	No. And so what did you used to do, what did you get up to on Christmas Day? 	
JULIE	On Christmas Day well in my household at home on Christmas Day it tended to end up in an almighty blazing family row. 	
MAT	Good.	
LIZ	No change there then. 	
MAT	Nice and traditional. 	
JULIE	And my dad would pick up a plate of food and loz it over my brother’s head and it would hit the wall behind him as he ducked. I would be hiding under the table because it was the safest place to be while the three of them - my mother, my father and my brother - would chase each other round the house having a row. 	
LIZ	And did you... because you were, you know, because you were a crip at Christmas did you... 	
JULIE	Yes. 	
LIZ	... get away with not doing stuff. 	
JULIE	Not a chance. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
JULIE	Not in my household. My mum’s really strict or was as a child about, you know, everyone joining in, me included. So I used to have like these plasters called spiker plasters that are a body cast of plaster. 	
MAT	Hold on a sec I can’t quite visualise that, how does that work? 	
JULIE	Okay. It starts at the toes and it goes all the way up your leg all the way past your botty you have a hole cut out so you can go for a wee and a poo, and then you have it all the way up to your boobies. So you lay flat for like six or eight weeks however long you’ve got this full body cast on. So anyway my mum would like lay a duvet on the kitchen floor and then lay me on the duvet on the kitchen floor and give me the bowl of drying up to do, give me a t-towel and say, “Get on with it.” 	
MAT	What? 	
JULIE	So you know there was none of that in my household. 	
LIZ	No getting away with it then. 	
JULIE	No. So I was treated no differently.	
LIZ	Do you remember your favourite present? We’ve just been hearing about Mat and his bicycle what about you? 	
JULIE	Yeah my favourite present was a pair of socks with holes in them like an orange and a few peanuts if I was lucky if I got that. 	
MAT	A pair of socks with holes in them! Are you saying that you were poor? Are you trying to say that you were poor?	
JULIE	I was so poor I just... yes absolutely. I didn’t get any posh presents. I’m trying to think of like a witty joke about, you know, that my father danced on me grave, you know, and I had to get up before I went to bed kind of joke but lost it.	
MAT	No but seriously though you must have had a little favourite did you not have... I like had a blue bunny that when I wee’d on it accidently it turned green. 	
JULIE	Oh dear.	
LIZ	That’s just because it was going mouldy. 	
JULIE	Do you know... put a nappy on the bloody thing.	
LIZ	Do you know what I mean? 	
MAT	I didn’t know you had to wash them. Anyway go on, sorry. 	
JULIE	I don’t know, I really genuinely can’t remember any of the presents. 	
LIZ	So, Julie... 	
MAT	She’s blanked it out. 	
LIZ	Because I went to... 	
JULIE	Yeah the trauma. 	
LIZ	... I went to mainstream school and that was all a bit grim and nothing sp--... you know you had the carol concerts and the whole thing. 	
JULIE	Right. 	
LIZ	And so I’m trying to get a picture of how the Special School Christmases were different. And I was reading about you and you said that you used to go and you used to be part of a group and you would entertain people at the Christmas concerts and stuff like that. 	
JULIE	Well yeah drama and music was quite a high priority at Treloar’s and we all had to kind of sing and dance and play an instrument so, you know, when we did a play for example we would do West Side Story but there would be like whole dance ensembles and we all had to play the music ourselves. So once a year we would go down to The Glaziers in London who often gave money and donated money and we would put on these really fandangled Christmas concerts. So it wasn’t, in any way, patronising it was just a really professional sleek concert that we would put on. 	
LIZ	How impressive. In our school they used to give us a Satsuma as a Christmas treat. 	
JULIE	See you know how I feel then?	
LIZ	Is that all you got for Christmas?	
JULIE	That’s all I got. 	
LIZ	Oh no. No but you didn’t, you didn’t did you because you... 	
JULIE	No, no. 	
LIZ	I’m reading here too, right, that you went on a trip to Austria. 	
JULIE	Well my mum’s Austrian you see so I have a large contingent of family out in Austria. So on the times because of the brittle bone disease and having so many surgeries as a child when I wasn’t having surgery, or recovering from, during the holiday, the Christmas holidays we would all go for two or three weeks home to Austria and stay with family. And back then when I was really titchy, and I’m still titchy, but really titchy I would go everywhere on a sledge. So my parents would book me I’d have all my, you know, all the ski suit on and all the blankets round me and we would just walk to friends and go and have dinner at friends and they’d just pull me everywhere on a sledge see. 	
LIZ	So you’d be lying down on the sledge with the washing up bowl next to you probably knowing your mum. 	
MAT	With your mum going “Mush, mush”.	
JULIE	Mush. 	
LIZ	More faster, faster. 	
JULIE	That’s why she said.	
LIZ	Oh no we’ve... 	
JULIE	I wish they’d do it now because I’d have a glass of champagne in one hand and a bar of chocolate in the other. 	
LIZ	Well Julie stay with us, stay with us please. 	
JULIE	Will do. 	
LIZ	Julie, we’ll be back with you a little bit later on. 
[Jingle: 
You’re listening to the Ouch talk show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr]	
MAT	Still to come on the Ouch Christmas talk show Aussie actress Kiruna Stamell will be joining us live on the line from Australia, and we’ll be treating you to a soothing, peaceful carol. Could we have a quick burst Abbi? 
[Playing The First Noel]	
LIZ	Thank you Abbi. Rob’s back with us in the studio. Hello Rob. 	
ROB	Hello there. 	
LIZ	And Emma Tracey joins us. 	
EMMA	Hello. 	
LIZ 	Hello Emma. 	
MAT	Hiya. Hey Emma?	
EMMA	Hm-mm. 	
MAT	Do the Irish celebrate Christmas? 	
EMMA	Yes they do. 	
MAT	Oh you learn something every day. 	
LIZ	Isn’t that nice. 	
ROB	Is that a new thing? 	
EMMA	No. 	
LIZ	Are you going to pull a crack Emma? 	
EMMA	Oh yeah. Are you ready, one, two, three.	
MAT	Yes one, two... oh she ripped it out of my ill-equipped ((0:27:25.6?)) wrenching my arms from my sockets.  	
EMMA	Sorry about that. 	
LIZ	Is it a Braille joke in there?  	
MAT	What’s the joke? 	
EMMA	I’ve got a present. 	
MAT	Yes. Do you... oh it’s dice. 	
LIZ	It’s a game of dice. 	
EMMA	Oh good very accessible. 	
MAT	It’s like a mini version of Twister. 	
EMMA	Oh my gosh I’ve got a party hat and I can’t find the joke. 	
MAT	The joke’s... there is it. 	
EMMA	Oh here we go, here we go, here we go. 	
MAT	Is it in Braille? 	
EMMA	No I’m afraid not. 	
MAT	I’ll read it out for you Emma. 	
EMMA	Thank you. 	
MAT	Have you heard about the agnostic dyslexic? He stays awake all night wondering if there’s a dog. [silence except for wind noise]	
LIZ	Have we got one of those the howling winds - that’s right and the church bells. 	
MAT	Yeah that was stunningly Christmassy that one wasn’t it? 	
LIZ	Absolutely. 	
MAT	Apparently, Emma, the only real blind person at Christmas time is he who has not had Christmas in his heart. Do you know who said that? This is a real thing. 	
EMMA	Oh... 	
LIZ	It’s one of yours. 	
EMMA	Is it someone like is it someone Dickens or... ? 	
MAT	One more time, “The only real blind person at Christmas time is he who has not Christmas in his heart.”	
LIZ	It does sound very Dickens but it’s not. 	
EMMA	Is it... I actually have no idea I’m afraid, sorry. 	
MAT	She is famously blind and... 	
EMMA	Oh oh it’s good old Helen. 	
MAT	Hey!	
EMMA	Oh sorry! 	
LIZ	Yes it’s Helen... 	
EMMA	Oh my goodness...	
LIZ	... of the Keller. 	
EMMA	... it’s my hero Helen. 	
LIZ	Yes isn’t she everyone’s? 	
EMMA	I think so. 	
LIZ	I believe that you’ve got a festive game for us, Emma Tracey? 	
EMMA	Oh yes I do. 	
LIZ	In a minute but first we’re talking... we’ve been talking today about childhood memories what’s this about you singing in prison when you were child. Were you in prison Emma Tracey as a child? 	
EMMA	Well it was... 	
ROB	Do they do that to blind people in Ireland? 	
EMMA	Well yeah institutions maybe not quite prisons. But no I... yeah I did find myself in prison when I was about ten singing Christmas carols for the prisoners who had Brailed my books throughout the year. Basically all our books were Brailed by the prisoners in ((Aberhill?)) Prison in Dublin. 	
MAT	Wow!	
EMMA	And we used to go in at Christmas time and we’d sing for them. And then they’d give us teddies they’d made in the teddy making bit of the prison obviously. 	
LIZ	Did they put things... 	
ROB	When you ripped open the teddy what did you find? Cocaine, knives. 	
MAT	Give this teddy to the bloke outside all right. 	
EMMA	I mean we were always really told really, really, really strongly when we were on our way in, “Don’t ask them what they’re in for.”	
LIZ	What were they in for though? 	
EMMA	That was the... well... 	
MAT	Did you ask them?	
EMMA	No. I think someone did though at one point and they said, “They say I killed someone but I didn’t” you know that kind of thing. But no they were obviously long stay prisoners because basically learning how to Braille a book actually takes quite a long time so, you know, they had to choose people who were going to be there for the long haul to do Braille. 	
ROB	Were there any disability benefit cheats in there? 	
EMMA	Rob, I have no idea I was ten. And then they had to stop getting the prisoners to Braille the books in the end because the prison involved turned into a short stay prison so they couldn’t do it anymore. 	
LIZ	So you stopped learning to read. 	
EMMA	Well yeah probably. Well no they set up another Braille unit - boring but yeah it was not as exciting as having... 	
LIZ	Happy, happy memories of childhood Christmassy Emma or...?	
EMMA	Yeah, yeah I think I got better presents because I think they had to be very tactile or talk or something, so I reckon I probably got better presents than my brother - sorry Mark. And yeah... 	
LIZ	You’ve been holding that in all these years. 	
MAT	Poor old Mark eh let’s have a moment for Mark. 	
EMMA	But I do I have a bit of a theory though I do think that sometimes disabled people get better presents due to a mixture of sort of their needs... needing particular stuff, but also a bit of guilt, parental guilt you know about the disability so they.... 	
MAT	Contentious opinion! 	
EMMA	It’s not... obviously not in all cases and not in mine mum, but you know... 	
LIZ	Because she listens to everyone of these talk shows. 	
EMMA	She does. 	
ROB	She’s a good girl isn’t she Mrs Tracey. 	
MAT	Weren’t we meant to be playing some sort of game? 	
EMMA	Yes we were before I started rabbiting on. 	
MAT	No it’s nice to hear about your... 	
LIZ	About the good old days. 	
MAT	Yes ah prison you know... 	
EMMA	Anyway... 	
MAT	... violence. 	
EMMA	... my turn now. Basically I’m going to give you each a subject and as soon as I tell you what it is you have 45 seconds to tell me as many things as you can that are associated with that subject. If the things that you guess are on my list then you get a point. 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
EMMA	And the person with the most points at the end wins an extra mince pie, because you all get a mince pie obviously because it’s Christmas. 	
MAT	Hoorah!	
EMMA	You get an extra mince pie and you also get a fabulous fanfare piano fanfare from Miss Abbi over there. 	
LIZ	Which is what I’ve asked for Christmas from Santa. 	
EMMA	A mince pie and a fanfare? 	
LIZ	Yes. 	
MAT	Well I asked for something. 	
LIZ	You could make it true. 	
ROB	Christmas has come early. 	
LIZ	Hasn’t it indeed. 	
EMMA	So basically I’ve got three lists... 	
MAT	Great. 	
EMMA	... of disability stuff. 	
MAT	Who’s going to go first? 	
EMMA	Well you see this is the thing. We need to do it in a... I’ve got three lists they’re marked one, two and three so you need to pick a number and we’ll see... and then you know you’ll choose the list by that. So I think Rob you should go first and you pick a number between one and three. 	
ROB	One. 	
EMMA	One okay. So your stuff, are you ready? 	
ROB	Hm. 	
EMMA	So you’ve got 45 seconds to tell me as many things about as many disability movies starting NOW!	
ROB	Disability movies?	
EMMA	Involving disability. 	
ROB	Oh my I can’t think of any. My Left Foot.	
EMMA	Yeah. 	
ROB	There with Christy Brown. Right, okay.  	
LIZ	That was in a forest the other day. 	
ROB	Rain Man. 	
EMMA	Yes. 	
ROB	That would count wouldn’t it? 	
MAT	I know what I look like on the outside but... 	
ROB	What about... 	
EMMA	Come on, come on, come on. 	
LIZ	Are you dancing on the inside? 	
ROB	I can’t think of any. 	
EMMA	Come on.	
ROB	Rain Man, My Left Foot. What about... 	
EMMA	Run, run, come on quick, quick, quick run. 	
LIZ	Forest Gump. 	
ROB	Forest Gump. 	
EMMA 	Yeah. Er half a point for that. 	
ROB	Half a point. 	
MAT	Inside and Dancing. 	
ROB	What about 	
EMMA	He didn’t say it. 	
LIZ	Oh no. 	
EMMA	Oh come on quick, quick, quick. 	
ROB	I’m useless at this I can’t think of any. 	
MAT	I’m going out a bit later I’m... 	
ROB	What are you doing?	
MAT	Coming Home. 	
ROB	Oh two and a half. 	
EMMA	Okay, Rob, what you didn’t say what Mat did say... 	
MAT	That was cruel. 	
EMMA	... was Inside I’m Dancing. 	
ROB	Never heard of it. 	
EMMA	No one said... 	
MAT	Rubbish film, rubbish film. 	
EMMA	Born on the 4th July. 	
LIZ	I sang it.	
EMMA	Can I just sit up and say I quite liked Inside I’m Dancing. Born on the 4th July. The Miracle Worker. 	
ROB	Never heard of it. 	
LIZ	Helen Keller. 	
EMMA	A Beautiful Mind, Rob, you could have got that one. 	
ROB	Oh yes okay. 	
EMMA	The old favourite Shine. You did say Rain Man so well done. 	
MAT	Sensible Woman.	
EMMA	Have we got that on the list - we don’t that on the list actually. Philadelphia good one.  	
MAT	Isn’t that about cheese? 	
EMMA	You did say My Left Foot. 	
LIZ	((0:34:17.3?)) 	
EMMA	And Liz’s favourite... 	
MAT	AIDS not cheese. 	
EMMA	Liz’s favourite Million Dollar Baby and finally Liz said... 	
MAT	Bash. Ow!	
EMMA	... and then you said Forest Gump so I don’t know how many points I think you get two and a half points, Rob, out of ten. 	
ROB 	Oh that’s dismal it’s like being back at school. 	
MAT	It was a bit cruel... 	
EMMA	Okay... 	
MAT	... asking Rob to do the films. 	
EMMA	Well I mean wait until you see the rest of them. Mat, pick a number two or three? 	
MAT	Three. 	
EMMA	Three alrighty. So your subject - are you ready? 	
MAT	Yes.	
EMMA	You’re primed and ready to go. 	
MAT	I’m ready to go. 	
EMMA	Your subject is famous people with Bipolar Disorder. 	
MAT	All right. 	
EMMA	And your time starts now.	
MAT	Paul Merton?	
EMMA	No. 	
MAT	He does have... 	
EMMA	He’s not on my list. 	
MAT	Oh God. Scrooge? 	
EMMA	He’s not on my list. 	
MAT	Well clearly he was depressed. Stephen Fry? 	
EMMA	Yes. One. 	
MAT	Oh God. 	
LIZ	I saw him this week at a film premier. 	
MAT	Who else did you see Liz that had Bipolar. 	
EMMA	Come on, come on. 	
MAT	I’m coming. 	
EMMA	Come on 45 seconds. 	
LIZ	The one from Squeeze. 	
MAT	The one from Squeeze?	
LIZ	You know the guy from Squeeze. 	
EMMA	NO. 	
LIZ	No. 	
EMMA	Come on. Come on real famous people. 	
MAT	I’m TRYING. 	
EMMA	Pop singers think of... [gong sounding] oh my gosh. 	
MAT	Pop singers?	
LIZ	Oh!	
MAT	Madonna?	
LIZ	Never met a girl like... 	
MAT	Jedward, Jedward?	
LIZ	... you before. 	
MAT	Jedward. 	
EMMA	Matthew that was horrendous. 	
MAT	Jedward they must be depressed. 	
EMMA	You got one point.  	
ROB	I can’t believe I did better. Amazing! 	
EMMA	You will never be able to live it down in disability circles Rob got more than you. Ready? 	
MAT	Who did I miss? 	
ROB	Yeah who else was there? 	
EMMA	Okay so famous people with bipolar disorder you got Stephen Fry, he was the first on my list. Kerry Katona. 	
MAT	I don’t even register her in my reality.	
EMMA 	Robbie Williams. 	
MAT	Ditto. 	
EMMA	Britney Spears now you could have got that one. 	
MAT	No she just shaved her head. 	
EMMA	Gazza... she has a diagnosis of it. Gazza, Paul Gascoigne 	
ROB	Oh Paul Gascoigne yeah of course. 	
EMMA	Axl Rose. 	
MAT	Ditto. 	
EMMA	Jean-Claude van Damme. 	
LIZ	I wouldn’t have known any of these either. 	
MAT	Jean-Claude van Damme the kick boxer? 	
EMMA	I believe so yeah. Damon says yeah. Sinead O’Connor. 	
MAT	And he should know. Sinead O’Connor obviously. 	
EMMA	Now this Brian Wilson. 	
MAT	Brian Wilson. I stand corrected and humbled and shamed. 	
EMMA	He’s from the Beach Boys in case any of you know.	
MAT	Yes I knew that, I knew that. God Only Knows What I’d Do Without Him. 	
EMMA	Carrie Fisher very famously. Well I mean I don’t know if I should bother but I’m going to give you two a mince pie anyway just for your efforts... 	
MAT	Oh thank you.	
EMMA	... because you might need them. 	
MAT	Can you pass that round to Rob? 	
LIZ	I’ll pass it round to Rob. 	
EMMA	And here you go. 	
MAT	Oh thank you I feel awful. Guys I’m sorry... 	
ROB	There is an element of shame to eating this mince pie isn’t there? 	
MAT	I’ve let you down and I feel terrible. 	
LIZ	Okay Liz, you’re going to... 	
MAT	Come on. 	
LIZ	... you are going to wipe the floor I reckon. 	
MAT	Please do better. 	
LIZ	Can I have a number two? 	
EMMA	Slow down on the mulled wine there Liz Carr come on. 	
LIZ	Sorry actually I’ve got a bit of mulled wine wind so apologies. 	
EMMA	Mulled wined. 	
MAT	They’re delicious mince pies. 	
EMMA	Right. Now your subject, 45 seconds... 	
LIZ	Yes. 	
EMMA	... is disability equipment and your time starts now. 	
MAT	Is that fair? 	
LIZ	Commode? 	
EMMA	Oh no. 	
LIZ	Zimmer frame? 	
EMMA	No. 	
LIZ	Wheelchair?	
EMMA	No. 	
LIZ	Disability equipment? 	
EMMA	They’re too obvious, they’re too obvious come on think outside the box. 	
LIZ	Oh! Oh... 	
MAT	I wonder is a cane too obvious? 	
EMMA	You’re not doing this. 	
LIZ	A minicom? 	
EMMA	No. Come on, quick think like really... 	
MAT	Say a cane, say a cane. 	
LIZ	Really obvious. 	
EMMA	Say what Mat said. 	
LIZ	A cane. 	
EMMA	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Really? But they’re all blind things. 	
MAT	Yeah exactly. 	
EMMA	Quick, quick, quick. 	
LIZ	Hearing aid?	
EMMA	Yes. 	
LIZ	Oh I see how this is going. Cochlear implants?	
EMMA	No. 	
LIZ	Dark glasses?	
EMMA	No. 	
LIZ	Guide dogs? 	
EMMA	No more blind ones, come on. 	
LIZ	Kettle tipper? 	
EMMA	Yeah! 	
LIZ	Gripper stick? 	
EMMA	Yeah! 	
LIZ	Braille?	
EMMA	No. 	
LIZ	Oh man! 	
EMMA	You got four. 	
LIZ	But you missed out... 	
EMMA	I’m a bit disappointed in the sort of level of... 	
MAT	Well hold on a minute... 	
ROB	You’re all descending down to my level of ignorance, I love it. 	
MAT	A wheelchair is too obvious but a cane isn’t. 	
LIZ	Exactly. 	
EMMA	Do you know what I think she should get, it doesn't really matter anyway, but I think I’m going to give her five just because in fairness that is true. So... 	
MAT	How many mince pies does she get? 	
EMMA	She gets two mince pies and she gets... 	
LIZ	I do need two. 	
EMMA	... to the Liz Carr Christmas fanfare. 	
LIZ	I get a flourish. 	
MAT	Here we go then. 
[Piano playing Jingle Bells flourish]	
LIZ	I feel like I’ve won. [clapping]	
EMMA	Well done Liz Carr. 	
LIZ	More than that. 	
ROB	You were the least worst. 	
EMMA	Actually I need to tell you what else was on the list. You did say ((0:38:58.2?)) you did say cane, hoist you didn’t say.	
LIZ	Ah beautiful. 	
EMMA	And page turner. You said grab stick, you didn’t say - I can’t read my own brailing here - communication aid you didn’t say that, talking computer - in fairness that was a blindy one - stair lift, a Makaton phrasebook. 	
MAT	I’ve always wanted one of those. 	
EMMA	I would quite like one of those as well. 	
LIZ	That was on the tip of my tongue. 	
EMMA	And that’s all I’ve got written down here but you did quite well... 	
LIZ	Fair cop though. 	
EMMA	... in terms of Mat and Rob you certainly did... 	
LIZ	No that’s true. 	
EMMA	... quite well. 	
LIZ	I shouldn’t feel any shame. 	
EMMA	Well thank you for indulging me... 	
ROB	In the spirit of Christmas has made us all feel totally miserable now. 	
EMMA	... and for playing my game. I’m sorry. 	
LIZ	Is that it? 	
EMMA	Is there anything else on your script? 	
LIZ	No we just wanted more. 	
MAT	Doesn’t it say here look thank you Emma and Rob it says. 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	They’ll be back with us, well say it, say it. 	
LIZ	Yeah, no we’ll do that. No I will, I will. Thank you Emma and Rob. 	
EMMA	You’re welcome. I’m sorry. 	
LIZ	Thank you. No, no thank you for the mulled wine and the mince pies. You’ll both be back with us for our sing-along a bit later? 	
EMMA	Certainly will. 	
ROB	I guess so. 	
LIZ AND MAT	Oh yes you will!	
LIZ	You know you will. 	
MAT	You love it. 	
LIZ	Is it just me then? 	
MAT	What?	
LIZ	Well everyone seems to... 	
MAT	Sanctimoniously thinks they’re the best person about disability. 	
LIZ	No everyone else seemed to have great Christmases as a kid. 	
MAT	What and you had a rubbish one? 	
LIZ	Yeah mine...	
MAT	Why? 	
LIZ	... were rubbish. 	
MAT	Oh Liz tell me all about it. 	
LIZ	Well no but you know... 	
MAT	Quickly. 	
LIZ	... everyone’s like oh they were great.	
MAT	Actually no we don’t have time. 	
LIZ	No. 	
MAT	So... 	
LIZ	That’s exactly what used to happen. 	
EMMA	Have we heard about Liz’s Christmases? 	
LIZ	No. 	
MAT	No we haven't. 	
EMMA	Oh no!	
LIZ	It hasn’t fitted in anywhere. 	
ROB	Do we have the Our Tune music? 	
MAT	We don’t have time. 	
EMMA	We can’t exactly finish the programme with it can we? 	
LIZ	No. 	
MAT	No come on one minute on it, one minute here we go. 	
ROB	[whistling and singing Our Tune]	
LIZ	Well I grew up and I never really moved from the living room. I sat in the living room and my Christmases were about spending time with adults, being fed out of a ((car?)) whether I wanted it or not. People plonking Christmas hats on my head because I couldn’t reach my head in fact a similar thing happened today when Zoe with the producer put the Christmas cracker on my head, it just reminded me of my childhood. 	
MAT	But everything’s great NOW! 	
LIZ	Yeah but now everything’s fine. 	
MAT	Hoorah! 	
LIZ	No... 	
MAT	That was beautiful. 	
LIZ	Well anyway yes. I just want to say Christmases aren’t always great and mine growing up were pretty rubbish, they’re fab now but actually being a disabled kid for me they were pretty poo. 	
EMMA	Well I think you're right.	
MAT	I’m sorry Liz, I’m sorry. 	
LIZ	No it’s not a bad thing, it was nobody’s fault but I just mean kind of you know couldn’t go up to my room to play and do things like that. Ended up with lots of adults and they weren’t that much fun. 	
MAT	I often ended up I remember one year I ended up in my room listening to a Prince Buster drunk on a champagne cocktail thinking is this it. 	
LIZ	So Christmas - Merry Christmas!	
ROB	Merry bloody Christmas.	
EMMA	Was that even at Christmas? 	
ROB	If you’ve been affected by some of the issues that we’ve discussed in this month’s podcast... 
[Jingle:
Mat Fraser, Liz Carr bbc.co.uk/ouch
If you've never seen a severely handicapped person trying to speak before it can be a bit alarming]	
MAT	Julie Fernandez is still here and now we’re joined by another guest, it’s Kiruna Stamell on the line from Sidney in Australia. 	
LIZ	That sometimes host... 	
KIRUNA	Hello. 	
LIZ	... of the talk show, star, actress, star of Cast Offs, Kiruna hello. 	
KIRUNA	Hello. 	
MAT	Where are you what town in Australia are you in? 	
KIRUNA	I’m actually in Sidney at the moment so I’m 11 hours into the future, you guys you’re in my wake you’re in the past.	
MAT	What’s just happened? 	
KIRUNA	God a second ago not much really in this little box that I’m sitting in... 	
LIZ	And what is going to happen? 	
KIRUNA	... which incidentally... oh I’m going to keep talking probably. 	
LIZ	Oh okay. 	
MAT	Ooh!	
KIRUNA	Aren’t you guys excited? 	
MAT	Yes I am. 	
KIRUNA	It’s already happened for me it’s yet to happen for you.	
MAT	I don’t know about you, Kiruna, but it feels ever so Christmassy suddenly. 	
LIZ	Ooh yeah. 	
MAT	Ooh. 	
LIZ	Shall we all gather, Julie... 	
MAT	Oh let’s gather round. 	
LIZ	... Kiruna shall we gather around the fireplace?	
MAT	All the four of us around the little Christmas fire.	
LIZ	The Christmassy fireplace. 	
KIRUNA	What’s the point of the fireplace for me I’m in summer? 	
LIZ	[fire crackling] Oh hold on I can hear the crackling of... oh that’s nice. 	
MAT	It’s the crackling of the wicker man outside isn’t it? 	
LIZ	Oh but look Kiruna’s in a bikini. 	
KIRUNA	I am on a beach. 	
LIZ	Oh nice. 	
MAT	It’s pretty weird. You’re having a beach party? 	
KIRUNA	And it’s very sunny. I am a beach... I’m having a BBQ.	
MAT	Okay. Have you got a famous Christmas present Kiruna? 	
KIRUNA	My favourite would have to be I got this little robot and he had a gun in his right hand that just kind of went like [machine gun noise] and he was great and his eyes would flash. And he’d move his arms sort of up and down in a robot fashion and I wore his wheels out because I kept making him go up and down the cement in the back garden. 	
MAT	And you and Peta, your sister, who was working with the Ouch team recently, are you twins or sisters? 	
KIRUNA	We’re just sisters. Peta’s got an identical twin. 	
MAT	Oh oh that’s it. 	
KIRUNA	But I’m the eldest. 	
MAT	Okay. So did you used to beat them up for Christmas because they were younger? 	
KIRUNA	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Was that like a tradition in your house? 	
MAT	And steal their toys and go, “That’s mine.”	
KIRUNA	Because you’d spend too much time together you know during the Christmas... because at Christmas too it’s summer in Australia so we get six weeks off at school so we’d have a massive break, so we’d sort of be at one another’s throats by the middle of the holiday really. 	
MAT	I do remember when I was little and spent one Christmas in New Zealand I went swimming on the beach on Christmas Day and it was the weirdest feeling for me, really weird. 	
LIZ	Kiruna... 	
KIRUNA	I love it it’s liberating. 	
LIZ	I don’t want to be indelicate about this, Kiruna, you know... 	
MAT	Oh God. 	
LIZ	... we can talk like this right... 	
KIRUNA	Oh God what are you going to say? 	
LIZ	Christmas well you know Christmas is... 	
MAT	Aren’t you working? 	
LIZ	... isn’t it... exactly that’s it isn’t this your big time. Isn’t it your big time... 	
MAT	When you’re feeling very happy or are you feeling quite grumpy? 	
LIZ	You know isn’t it the big, you know, you’ve got a lot of panto a lot of dwarf roles whatever the term is?	
MAT	Yeah what is all that have you ever done the... 	
KIRUNA	Oh I thought you guys were going to mention elves because we don’t do panto in Australia. 	
LIZ	Oh okay. 	
MAT	Have you never been offered...	
KIRUNA	We don’t do panto.	
MAT	... panto love in Britain. 	
KIRUNA	Never been offered panto. 	
MAT	You’re a very, very famous actress now you will be for next year after Cast Offs you’ll be inundated. 	
LIZ	Yeah. Snow White... 	
KIRUNA	I can’t wait to put on a beard. 	
LIZ	... that’ll be it you’ll get your pick of the seven the pick. 	
MAT	Would you... 	
KIRUNA	No in Australia it was more kind of elf roles that, you know, I was offered every Christmas and we’d in sort of winter wonderlands that we’d mock up with cotton wool to represent snow and fake snow in the windowsills that you could buy in a can that was actually kind of what was just white paint really that was sort of three dimensional that would stick to the glass around the bottom on the windowpane. 	
LIZ	I know the stuff. 	
MAT	Know it well and so did the shop front stores in most town centres. 	
KIRUNA	Classic. 	
MAT	Would you though, Kiruna, seriously you’re a quality actress you’ve got a high profile as a serious actress, but would you actually play a dwarf in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and elf or a gnome? 	
LIZ	Or have you? 	
KIRUNA	Do you know what we all have our price. 	
MAT	Are you telling me that we’re all prostitutes? 	
KIRUNA	Essentially. 	
MAT	No don’t say that. 	
KIRUNA	A prostitute is just a woman in another form of the entertainment industry. 	
MAT	No need to get all militant Andrea Dworkin thanks very much. 	
LIZ	He pulls that one every month, every month here. 	
MAT	No seriously have you done it, have you hm Kiruna, have you? 	
KIRUNA	No never have. Never ever. 	
LIZ	But you wouldn’t say no necessarily? 	
MAT	All right how much a week? 	
KIRUNA	Look I said we’ve all got our price. 	
MAT	How much a week? £1000 a week? 	
KIRUNA	No it would need to be more... 	
MAT	To play Happy?	
KIRUNA	... than that because it would need to be enough that I felt no kind of embarrassment... 	
MAT	£2000? 	
KIRUNA	... that I’d sold out. 	
LIZ	Do you think it’s demeaning then basically to do that? 	
KIRUNA	I think because it’s sort of it has set itself up as being one of the few opportunities. If we were in sort of a level playing field where people of short stature could play, you know, the roles were available to play whoever you wanted, then... 	
MAT	Cinderella for instance. 	
KIRUNA	... then I’d be like, you know... yeah but we’re not and it’s sort of like, you know, for a really long time that was the only, you know, acting role that was made available and out there. And I sort of see it as being quite self-limiting really. 	
MAT	You’ve got the little woman at the end of that film Don’t Look Now you could play her as well. 	
KIRUNA	Well I could always, you know, put on a red jacket and a hood. I mean it’s ruined raincoats for me forever that film. 	
MAT	Why don’t we here and now guys, cripple guys right, pledge... 	
LIZ	Yes. 	
MAT	... that this time next year... 	
LIZ	Yes. 	
MAT	... we’ll do an all disabled panto that totally subverts all the nasty disability clichés of pantoland. 	
LIZ	Julie would you be in there? 	
JULIE	That’s a brilliant idea I am there, I am up for that most definitely. 	
LIZ	Kiruna? 	
KIRUNA	I’m totally up for that. 	
LIZ	See. 	
MAT	All right. 	
KIRUNA	I’d even wear a beard for that. 	
LIZ	What would it be? 	
MAT	What would it be, listeners why don’t you start suggesting for us? 	
LIZ	We’ve got a year to prepare for this. 	
JULIE	Hey can I ask Kiruna a question? 	
MAT	Please do. 	
LIZ	Go for it. 	
KIRUNA	Maybe. 	
LIZ	Go for it. 	
JULIE	Do you snog Dan in the show? 	
KIRUNA	I’m not allowed to say anything about...	
JULIE	Oh I really want to know. 	
KIRUNA	... any such matter. I’m afraid it’s a big fat secret... 	
MAT	Cast Offs they’re talking about, listeners they’re talking about Cast Offs. Sorry I can’t... 	
JULIE	It’s brilliant. 	
LIZ	Okay, sshh that’s it now okay it’s a bit... 	
KIRUNA	You know what’s really annoying though is everyone keeps going on about how hot he is. 	
JULIE	He is.	
KIRUNA	And I really think more people need to wave a flag for me. I mean I went out with him in the show... 	
LIZ	Okay for the... 	
KIRUNA	... surely we should be talking about, you know. 	
LIZ	... for the handful of people who may have not seen it there is a programme on UK TV currently called Cast Offs on channel four quite late at night ridiculously that is, well you can talk about it Mat because you’re in it and Kiruna’s in it too. 	
MAT	Because I’m in two roles here let Kiruna talk about it. I want to be with you here being an Ouch person. 	
LIZ	Kiruna describe it in a sentence for our listeners. 	
KIRUNA	All right. Six disabled people get dumped on an island and told to fend for themselves. That’s the premise that brings the characters together. Mockumentary style and with flashbacks to their back stories which is, you know, where the meat and the drama lies and you get to find out about all of their lives and it’s, you know... well I like it. 	
LIZ	It’s a proper drama, it’s well written... 	
KIRUNA	Actually I say that but I haven’t watched a single episode because I’m in Australia while it’s on television. I’ve been told there are people who do enjoy it. 	
LIZ	And we have one of... there’s a wheelchair using Irish guy who was in episode number one who... 	
KIRUNA	Yeah who everyone keeps going on about being really hot blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 	
MAT	But hold on...	
LIZ	It’s looking like him and your character... 	
MAT	... it’s Christmas, it’s Christmas... 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	... and who’s that it’s... who’s that is that Father Christmas coming through the snow towards us in our little Christmas cottage? 	
LIZ	Oh look hi Santa. 	
SANTA	Hello. Hello. 	
LIZ	What? Has he got a speech impairment? 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	Hey I never knew that Santa was disabled. 	
MAT	Yeah he’s got a learning disability. 	
LIZ	Hey nice. 	
MAT	Everybody knows that Santa Clause has got Down’s Syndrome. 	
LIZ	Excellent. I’m going to stop there. 	
MAT	What? What’s wrong with that? 	
LIZ	Don't say...	
MAT	You’re not allowed to say that anymore listeners. 	
JULIE	Oh right okay is that a big taboo now is it? 	
MAT	Apparently. 	
LIZ	You can’t say anything like that. Kiruna I want to ask when you’re out then at this time of year because I remember when we did the talk show together and you were saying about people staring, taking pictures of you in the street normally anyway. 	
KIRUNA	Hm-mm yeah. 	
JULIE	It’s because you’re so pretty though isn’t it surely? 	
KIRUNA	Yeah of course. 	
LIZ	But does it happen more at this time of year, you know, if you’re around... 	
KIRUNA	Oh okay. You know what drives me absolutely batty when some little kid has obviously gone in and met with Santa right? 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
KIRUNA	And then they run into me on the street and it’s, “Look mum there’s one of Santa’s elves” and I am absolutely stuck in this moment where it’s like what do I do? Do I educate them on disability and, you know, assert my kind of adult human right?  	
JULIE	Or tell them to sod off. 	
KIRUNA	Or is that the same as walking up to a little innocent child and going, “You know what - Santa’s not real.” 	
MAT	That’s the one I like. 	
JULIE	I love it. 	
LIZ	Yeah that’s the one we want whether you can do that. No tell us there’s a story that you were telling us about you and your sisters when you were around the Christmas tree in the shopping centre. 	
KIRUNA	Oh yeah this was we were really, really young I actually don’t remember this, this is something that, you know, mum relayed years later where there’s a shopping centre in Sidney it’s a little bit like West Field you know the one that you guys have out at Shepherd’s Bush and you get beautiful massive Christmas trees and this is in the early ‘80s when we were, you know, just babies, toddlers. And you get these ginormous Christmas trees, or you did particularly back then, and you know the whole shopping centre would really be decked out. And there was this moment when mum had taken myself and, you know, my two sisters down, you know, to check out the decorations and do our Christmas shopping. And we were so young I don’t even remember and the three of us were sitting around, you know, the Christmas tree and looking really cute and angelic but, you know, quite sort of clearly, you know, disabled and petite and well strange looking, but in an adorable angelic kind of way. And, you know, mum had sort of stood back and we were all just being children... 	
MAT	And did anything actually happen? 	
KIRUNA	... that was happening. Yeah we ended up attracting a massive crowd of people who basically stood around us and stared us staring at Christmas. 	
MAT	Wow surreal...	
KIRUNA	And, you know, mum was absolutely kind of... 	
MAT	... like in an art gallery. 	
KIRUNA	Well it was basically this moment where mum went, “Oh they’re really just not ever going to get a break are they” because we weren’t even sort of really allowed to just be children enjoying Christmas... 	
MAT	I feel sad now. 	
KIRUNA	... we became part of it. 	
LIZ	So really... 	
MAT	I’m sad. 	
LIZ	... you should have just put the elf suits on and earned some money from it really.	
KIRUNA	Basically I think that was sort of the moment where, you know... 	
MAT	Talking of children, Julie... 	
JULIE	Hm yes. 	
MAT	I believe you're doing something child orientated? 	
JULIE	I am... 	
MAT	What is it?	
JULIE	... hopefully this afternoon I will... my husband and I, Andrew... 	
LIZ	Are giving birth? 	
JULIE	... we are... 	
LIZ	Oh God!	
MAT	You’re going to buy a child from Madonna? 	
JULIE	Absolutely now which country shall I go to today? We’re training to be foster parents and we find out at about 2:00 o’clock today whether we get passed as foster carers. 	
MAT	Wow!	
JULIE	Yeah it’s very exciting. 	
MAT	And does the disability impact on that at all? 	
JULIE	No they’re really pleased with the fact that I have a disability because they have so many disabled children that need support. Well to be honest initially we’re going to start by offering respite care to disabled children so we’ll have disabled kids come and stay with us on weekends and during the week and stuff. But the fact that I have a disability has actually played to my advantage on this which is brilliant. 	
LIZ	Wow. 	
MAT	That’s lovely. 	
LIZ	And you’re going there this afternoon, we know you’ve got to rush off in a sec, might it be that quick that you have somebody with you for Christmas, a child for Christmas? 	
JULIE	It may well be. We may well be getting a little bubby we’re not sure yet. 	
MAT	Oh we’re going to cry. 	
LIZ	Oh my God I’m overwhelmed. 	
JULIE	Very exciting. 	
MAT	Oh my gosh. Well look if you do... 	
JULIE	I’m going to get my husband to change the nappies though I don’t think I will. 	
MAT	Make your husband do that. 	
JULIE	Joke, I’m joking. 	
MAT	Men do that these days. 	
JULIE	They do. 	
MAT	Except if they’ve got flippers and then all the stuff ((0:53:48.3?)) 	
LIZ	Men, or PAs and carers... 	
MAT	Listen, but if you... would you tell us, would you update us on that Julie? 	
JULIE	Absolutely. 	
MAT	Because we, all the listeners and us want to know now don’t we? 	
LIZ	Yeah no. 	
JULIE	Absolutely. 	
LIZ	Well whatever... good luck this afternoon. 	
JULIE	Thank you. 	
LIZ	And whether you’re... it’s you and your husband or you, husband plus one other Happy Christmas to you all. 	
JULIE	Thank you and Happy Christmas back. 	
LIZ	And Kiruna?	
KIRUNA	Yes. 	
LIZ	Wow in the sun, are you going to be out in Australia for Christmas? 	
KIRUNA	Actually no I’m flying back, well I’m actually going to fly up to Sweden and have Christmas up north really. 	
LIZ	Fantastic. 	
MAT	Scandinavian Christmas. 	
KIRUNA	((0:54:24.3?)) to hang out with the Scandinavians and do Christmas their way. Apparently it all happens on Christmas Eve rather than Christmas Day. 	
MAT	Everyone does it different it’s really weird. 	
LIZ	We do don’t we. 	
MAT	Thank you very much for a lovely Christmassy chat. 	
LIZ	Hm yes. 	
KIRUNA	No thank you. 	
MAT	I’m all warm and glowy. 	
LIZ	Merry Christmas to you both. 	
MAT	MERRY CHRISTMAS. HO, HO, HO!	
KIRUNA	Yeah bah humbug. 	
MAT	Oh look we’d better hurry along to church for the Christmas service. Look I think it’s starting soon. 	
LIZ	[bells ringing] Whatever religion you are or even if you’re not religious at Christmas... 	
MAT	Even if you want to stay outside the church and build a little pagan alter the Christmas Gods of Solstice. 	
LIZ	But ((0:55:07.4?)) Christmassy in ((0:55:08.3?)) 	
MAT	In ((0:55:09.8?))	
LIZ	It feels... 	
MAT	Oh it’s lovely. WE ARE SO CHRISTMASSY - HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE! 	
LIZ	We’re almost at the end of the show. 	
MAT	We are and thank you everybody. Thanks especially to our friends, Julie Fernandez and Kiruna Stamell for their lovely company; to Rob Crossan and the production team, Damon Rose, Emma Tracey and Zoe Breen. Studio manager today was Andrew Smiley. 	
LIZ	We’re playing out with us I know the Ouch team singing for you. You’re going to love our own very special rendition of The First Noel. Take it away Abbi. 
[Singing The First Noel] 	
ALL	Merry Christmas everyone! 	
MAT	Down the pub? 	
ROB	Not available in the shops.