Ouch Podcast #40 – June 2009
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

MAT	37, 38, 39	
LIZ	40 times I’ve heard this theme tune. 	
MAT	I know. 	
LIZ	It’s not even a podcast anymore. 	
MAT	I know it’s a talk show it’s out of date, it’s irrelevant kind of like us. 	
LIZ	They think it’s so funny. 	
MAT	Liz!	
LIZ	Good to have you back yeah. 
[Jingle
You’re so special we’ve made a podcast for you
Disabled people can have fun too
They can do anything we can do
Say thank you to the BBC
Dry your eyes and listen in
To people just like you
Confined to a website
The Ouch Podcast]
	
MAT	They’ve already said it once let’s not let them get away with it again - confined to a webcast the Ouch talk show. 	
LIZ	Talk show. 	
MAT	Talk show. We need a... 	
LIZ	That’s what we are. 	
MAT	We need a new one. 	
LIZ	Yeah can we, can we get a new one producer?	
MAT	Yes please. 	
LIZ	New one please. 	
MAT	Hm, hm can we Damon Rose? 	
LIZ	It’s a question. 	
MAT	You’ll see what you can do. 	
LIZ	Hmmmm! Listen next month see what we’ve got. 	
MAT	I can hardly bear the excitement. 	
LIZ	I know. 	
MAT	Rather relaxed way of coming into it this week...	
LIZ	I know.	
MAT	... month even. 40 who’d have thought it? 	
LIZ	You're looking good for your age. 	
MAT	Ha ha!	
LIZ	You’re looking good.	
MAT	You too! 	
LIZ	I know. 	
MAT	Amazing!	
LIZ	A bit salt and peppery with the hair but you know. 	
MAT	You're talking to me Mr Salt was pepper.	
LIZ	Do you remember them band from the ‘80s not really our listenership.	
MAT	Salt and Pepper.	
LIZ	Pepper!	
MAT	What did they do - Push it, push it real good.	
LIZ	Push it real good ((singing))	
MAT	Which you can’t do. 	
LIZ	Oh. 	
MAT	Well not with your chair anyway. 	
LIZ	I can, I can with a joy stick. 	
MAT	I suppose so. 	
LIZ	There’s other ways to push it you know, don’t be so pushist.	
MAT	I’m sorry for being so, er, perambulatory normative. 	
LIZ	Yeah well thank you. 	
MAT	Push on, Liz, come on. 	
LIZ	Okay a lot to get through on this month’s talk show. From BBC Ouch we’ve got Simon Minty joining us to go through the news of the last month. And he’s a little heated about the shocking yet fascinating MP’s expenses row dominating the news her in the UK. 	
MAT	Watch out learnees the Tsar is in the house. 	
SCOTT	Most people with a learning disability if you mention Abba to them they go nuts. 	
MAT	That’s Scott Watkin a new national director for learning disabilities and we’ll be finding out about the man who’s got your future happiness in his hands. No pressure then. 	
LIZ	Listening to your voice Mat I reckon you’re a thalidomide victim am I right? 	
MAT	Oh God!	
LIZ	Hey hey! Yeah we’re going to be playing another round of the quiz Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable. 	
MAT	Another unsigned disabled artist will be playing us out at the end of the show. 
[Playing music]
That’s Al Cool and the Stranger Wines who are also at Glastonbury this month. More later. 	
LIZ	Lots more discussion along the way on the talk show - talk show note that. We’re on the web also at bbc.co.uk/ouch where you can also subscribe, listen to all 40 shows and watch videos of us being radio presenters. 	
MAT	So, er, we’re officially middle aged now... 	
LIZ	We are. 	
MAT	... as a talk show. 	
LIZ	Do you feel that? 	
MAT	Well I do have quite creaky knee joints but vegetarian glucosamine helps sort that out. But no, you know, because my circumstances have changed, you know, I’m 47...  	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	... so you’d think I’d be feeling the old middle aged creeping up on me. 	
LIZ	So why aren’t you? 	
MAT	I’m all in love and I feel like a teen again. 	
LIZ	Awh!	
MAT	No I think it totally is in the mind. I remember when I was 20 and people would say that and I’d be thinking oh shut up you silly old fool. But now I’m there it’s true don’t you think? 	
LIZ	Yeah but you’ve got a lot of ch--...	
MAT	You’re... you’ve been having a lovely ‘in love’ life for the last couple of years haven’t you? 	
LIZ	Not had a bad couple of years no actually. 	
MAT	And do you feel your age? 	
LIZ	Hmmm no I don’t... do you know what, I’ve got a bit of fridge magnet wisdom, I’ve got a fridge magnet at home that’s like, you know, if you didn’t know how old you are how old would you say you are, you know, and that’s a bit of a tongue twister, but it’s that basically how old do you feel for various reasons.	
MAT	So how old do you feel? 	
LIZ	Well I think it depends on the day, you know. 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	If it’s a great day then I’m feeling whatever - pretty young. If not sometimes I feel 84 whatever that feels like, you know, but it is my interpretation of things are harder and heavier to do and more difficult and all of that. But a lot of the time much, you know... yeah it’s great. 	
MAT	But then you know people have those perceptions about disabled people don’t they. “Oh look at them they probably can’t manage lunch it’s probably a terrible struggle” and I look at my Mum, who’s 70, and you know she’s the epitome of a sort of a think again when it comes to 70 year olds kind of thing. Even more so than a man I saw break dancing on Britain’s Got Talent last night.  	
LIZ	Oh don’t, don’t. I have to say I actually had an old review of me, right and it was describing me and of course it was describing me in impairment terms how I look... 	
MAT	Naturally. 	
LIZ	... and all that. 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	And it said that I, you know, poor me I was obviously prematurely aging and riddled with Cerebral Palsy.	
MAT	Ha ha because it is a riddler isn’t it? 	
LIZ	It is riddled, riddled from the very core of me. But no it’s been great. I’ve been away I don’t know if you noticed? 	
MAT	You're always away. I’ve missed you terribly. Yeah it was great working with Kiruna but I’m not going to lie when I say it’s lovely to have you back because I think, you know, we’re the king and queen of crip. 	
LIZ	Well we’re the old, we’re the old timers. 	
MAT	We’re the old timers yeah we’re the smashy and nicey of disability. 	
LIZ	If you’re interested where I’ve been? 	
MAT	Well I was about to ask. 	
LIZ	Oh okay then cue you. 	
MAT	Where have you been, Liz? 	
LIZ	Well I’ve been performing in Melbourne which is a great disability ((0:05:20?)) 	
MAT	Ripper! 	
LIZ	And that was fantastic and the Melbourne Comedy Festival because they’re so un-PC which is great. 	
MAT	Are they?	
LIZ	You can practically say anything and they’re... 	
MAT	Did they laugh did you do the spasing up stuff? 	
LIZ	No, no I didn’t but I did a lot of, you know, the stuff that I would normally do in a bit “Well I can’t believe she said that” and over there they’re like “Bring it on!” 	
MAT	Really?	
LIZ	And that’s just great that they’re open to stuff. That’s what I enjoyed. 	
MAT	Because they just like the rudeness and the offensiveness or because they get it? 	
LIZ	I think there’s a bit of both. 	
MAT	Ha-huh. 	
LIZ	I think there’s a bit of both which is great. But then absolute culture shock quite scared but I went to Japan. 	
MAT	((banging a gong noise)) that was the sound of me banging the gong.	
LIZ	With respect I’m bowing. 	
MAT	I’m bowing. Konnichiwa.	
LIZ	Not easy. Konnichiwa. 	
MAT	((0:06:03.6?))	
LIZ	Arigato! That’s about all we knew. Arigato.	
MAT	Harry Gateau!	
lIZ	Harry Gateau I’ll have some gateau.	
MAT	Is that like something to do with cake? 	
LIZ	That’s like thank you. That’s all you needed to do, you didn’t know where you were or whatever just bow do a little bit of that. 	
MAT	Arigato.  	
LIZ	Not good for a stiff neck but it was all right, you know. 	
MAT	What’s it like? I’ve always wanted to know what Japan’s like for disabled people amongst other things?	
LIZ	Okay. So I have to just... this disclaimer I know I was just a tourist I stayed in really nice places and I did touristy things on the whole oh my goodness it was the most accessible place I’ve ever been to as a wheel chair user. 	
MAT	Really? 	
LIZ	Without a doubt. 	
MAT	You’ve been some places. 	
LIZ	I have been a lot of places in the world. 	
MAT	You’ve been to Dollywood and everything. 	
LIZ	Well I have, I know, all the important places but... 	
MAT	More accessible than Dollywood? 	
LIZ	More accessible. More accessible than Australia, than the States, way more accessible... 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	... than the UK. 	
MAT	I’m really surprised. 	
LIZ	Public transport like nothing I have ever experienced. 	
MAT	But I’ve never seen a disabled Japanese person. 	
LIZ	But there... over there there are. I mean I know, you know, I’ve heard friends anecdotally say that it’s not a great place if you’re, you know, if you're living there... 	
MAT	I’d always heard for a disabled woman in particular that it’s a pretty grim place. 	
LIZ	I don’t know. I mean I saw disabled people who, you know, looked like they lived there of all impairments and ages - there were older people... 	
MAT	Was there anybody riddled with Cerebral Palsy? 	
LIZ	Quite a few. 	
MAT	Okay good. 	
LIZ	Yes. You know there was a lot of wobbly walkers over there. 	
MAT	Huh-ha. Any of my lot? 	
LIZ	Do you know what I don’t think I did see one of yours. 	
MAT	Oh ((0:07:22?)).	
LIZ 	I know. I’m surprised you can’t give me chapter and verse about the history of thalidomide in Japan. 	
MAT	Well I can what I can say... 	
LIZ	Oh no okay and anyway.. .	
MAT	... is that the Japanese just quickly...	
LIZ	... so what happens is... 	
MAT	... the Japanese Government were the only ones to say sorry. Carry on. 	
LIZ	Wow which makes a change. 	
MAT	Well they have a sense of shame when they’ve done wrong don’t they and they like to admit it - unlike other people I could mention. Go on. 	
LIZ	I didn’t know that. 	
MAT	Hm. Go on. 	
LIZ	No it was quite interesting. 	
MAT	For a change... 	
LIZ	No... 	
MAT	... an interesting thalidomide fact I know. 	
LIZ	Thank you. 	
MAT	Onwards. Pushing on Liz.	
LIZ	And it was incredible the access was cool. And you know what nobody particularly stared anymore than they would. 	
MAT	Really? 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	Is that the politeness thing that is... 	
LIZ	I have no idea. 	
MAT	... famous culturally? 	
LIZ	Because, you know, in a country like... in China very much like real freak appeal over there. 	
MAT	Well you are, you know.	
LIZ	But Japan... 	
MAT	You have freak appeal. 	
LIZ	But Japan... but there didn’t even seem to be that glance like looking up from the book. 	
MAT	The second when they flick away when you look. 	
LIZ	Yeah you know where you catch them. 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	There wasn’t even that. 	
MAT	So what did you do - did you drink Saki?	
LIZ	No because I’m not drinking at the moment so I don’t. 	
MAT	Oh okay. Oh on the wagon again are we? 	
LIZ	Did the old chopstick thing. 	
MAT	Can you use chopsticks? 	
LIZ	You know what with these crippled hands all I can do it stab them. Stab the food. 	
MAT	That’s the only way to... 	
LIZ	Stab the food. 	
MAT	Me with the thumbless... the thumbless man... 	
LIZ	Absolutely. 	
MAT	... with a chopstick is not a pretty sight. 	
LIZ	We should have a crip night out at a Chinese or a Japanese restaurant. 	
MAT	Japanese. 	
LIZ	It would be fantastic, really fantastic. 	
MAT	And the other famous thing about... is I suppose... what are the other famous things to do in Japan? 	
LIZ	Well you don’t do the famous things, you do the things that are like “Oh my goodness I’m in Japan as a disabled person.” So, for me, number one, and I’ve written about this, was accessible escalators, they have wheelchair accessible escalators. 	
MAT	I don’t... sorry I can’t visualise that - explain it - an accessible escalator how...	
LIZ	So you just... 	
MAT	... does that work? 	
LIZ	Right, well I thought because I’d read about them and it was like oh yeah just with everyone else you can get on the escalators it’ll be fantastic. Really hopes up that I’d just turn up to this place and I’d just wheel on like everyone else right. I had been on one before but it involved lots of people tipping me back, you know and it was precarious quite a terrifying experience. 	
MAT	Yes dangerous. 	
LIZ	But this was meant to be all, you know, very okay and we just went with everyone else. What happens is that there’s a button at the side of the escalator that’s pressed and it does like another revolution, the escalator, and then two lines come up, two blue lines at the side and three of the steps so three of the widths of the normal step become one - become like a platform. A little thing comes up at the front so you can’t tip over... 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	... like a ledge right, so you just wheel on and then they press the button again and... 	
MAT	That is so cool. 	
LIZ	Oh my good... I mean that’s all I did, you know, I’ve got more pictures of me on an escalator.	
MAT	I want... can we get one up on the website?	
LIZ	There will be website pictures of me, you know. 	
MAT	Now hold on a minute it’s a bit, I mean, brilliant but why didn’t we know about this before. You know I must admit though when I was a little boy magazines would be full of “the Japanese have invented the monorail” and things like this and I’d be like fascin--... why can’t we have a monorail I’d be thinking? I mean and yet we never got one did we? 	
LIZ	But that’s it.	
MAT	So why can’t, I mean, why haven’t they got those in California? 	
LIZ	You see I think... 	
MAT	And in Australia? 	
LIZ	Don’t you think that’s the best, best, best... 	
MAT	London? 	
LIZ	... part of travelling is that you can... it’s a bit like pick and mix. You go to all these countries and you go “Well I like that from there, and I like that from there...”	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	... and if you could bring them all together in this incredible utopian all disabled people live and it’s really accessible, that would be fantastic. 	
MAT	What else would you import in your utopia from Japan? 	
LIZ	Oh from Japan the toilets. My God they’re obsessed with washing their arses, I don’t know if I can say that, but they are. 	
MAT	Are we allowed to say arse? 	
LIZ	They’re obsessed with washing their bits. Can I say that? You know... 	
MAT	What they’ve got accessible bidets? 	
LIZ	Well that’s... every disabled toilet that I went to, right every one, was huge absolutely huge. 	
MAT	What the room was big of the actual bowl? 	
LIZ	The room was big sorry. They had like a bed so if you needed assistance change and whatever... 	
MAT	Oh okay. 	
LIZ	Yeah and like every toilet had like loads of buttons, the toilet seat was heated right, you could press a button and you were washed. 	
MAT	You get the flush yeah the self flush, thalids know all about those. 	
LIZ	The whole thing - dried. There’s even one where you press it and there’s a noise - there’s a noise so if you don’t want anyone to hear your ablutions it covers up the noise. 	
MAT	What is the noise? 	
LIZ	It’s a flushing. 	
MAT	It’s a flushing noise. 	
LIZ	You remember there used to be a coffee advert where they used to do the percolator noise ((making percolator noise)) it’s like that. So right, okay. Being there thinking of you all while I wasn’t here I’ve brought some gifts. 	
MAT	Hey!	
LIZ	Hey! Okay. 	
MAT	Presents through Liz from abroad time. 	
LIZ	Whoo that should be like a little trailer thing shouldn’t it? ((singing)) Presents from Liz. 	
MAT	I remember the ((0:11:52?)) cans as it if was yesterday. 	
LIZ	Okay here you go Matthew Fraser. It is a gift in a little Japanese bag with a lantern on it... 	
MAT	Oh look at this. 	
LIZ	... it’s red and white. 	
MAT	Oh this is gorgeous. What have we got here? Well I’ve got... 	
LIZ	Oh look, look what you’ve got. 	
MAT	I’ve got... 	
LIZ	He doesn't know what they are because he can’t read the packaging of course. 	
MAT	Sports time study time it says. Okay so I’m... 	
LIZ	It’s a bit of a thing that you can wear because I know you do like your martial arts.	
MAT	Oh it’s one of those headbands from that television show. 	
LIZ	Yes!	
MAT	What’s that show?	
LIZ	Banzai. 	
MAT	It’s a Banzai headband. 	
LIZ	It’s like a white headband with Japanese black writing and then a big circle in the middle. 	
MAT	Which I’m guessing says ‘Sports time study time’ on it?	
LIZ	Okay what I want... 	
MAT	Ahh and I’ve got two towelling wristbands. 	
LIZ	Yes you have. 	
MAT	For my wristbows	
LIZ	I don’t know if you have any wrists but that’s what... 	
MAT	Well I have wristbows.	
LIZ	... I thought was funny. 	
MAT	They look like an elbow feels like a wrist. 
[Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch. Ow! 
Now it’s time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable]	
LIZ	Yes it’s the quiz they’re using in disability awareness training all over the world. 	
MAT	Every month we get a disabled caller on the line and we have to work out what’s wrong with them. This month’s it’s Joslyn, a Canadian currently on holiday in new York. Hello Joslyn.  	
JOSLYN	Hello. 	
LIZ	Hello. So where are you from in Canada? 	
JOSLYN	I’m from Vancouver. 	
LIZ	Ah-ha beautiful part of the world. 	
MAT	I’ve heard it’s very famous for its laid back lifestyle - is that right, Joslyn? 	
JOSLYN	We are very laid back. We’re all about the yoga and being on the beach. 	
MAT	Ah sounds lovely. 	
LIZ	That’s not a bad way of life is it? Not bad. 	
MAT	Now is the word ‘canuck’ because I’ve got the words written down here, canuck in the Big Apple, Canadian in New York, is that actually an offensive term or could you explain that to me - Canuck. 	
JOSLYN	Oh Canuck. 	
MAT	Canuck, Canuck because that’s what... 	
JOSLYN	It’s not an offensive term no most Canadians would call themselves one it’s, in fact the Vancouver hockey team is called the Canucks. 	
MAT	All right. 	
LIZ	So what do you do out there in Canada, what do you do as a job or... 	
MAT	Of course you mustn’t tell us anything about your impairment now Joslyn. 	
JOSLYN	I won’t I promise. I sort of do two things; I’m a graduate student in global health and I am a research co-ordinator at a local children’s hospital. 	
LIZ	Hey good stuff. 	
MAT	Nice. 	
LIZ	You enjoy your job? 	
JOSLYN	I do, I do it’s very interesting. 	
LIZ	So you’re in New York are you working... you're on holiday I think are you?	
JOSLYN	I’m on holiday, I have a big birthday coming up and so my best girlfriend and I are out here celebrating our birthdays. 	
LIZ	Ah what a place, what a place to celebrate. 	
JOSLYN	Hm-mm. 	
MAT	How long are you going to be there for? 	
JOSLYN	Four more days. 	
MAT	Oh you’ll just miss me. 	
JOSLYN	Oh Mat, I have to tell you that you’re in my guide book. 	
mAT	I’m sorry. 	
JOSLYN	There’s a picture of you. 	
MAT	What! What bizarre guide book have you picked up - it certainly wasn’t Lonely Planet was it? 	
JOSLYN	It’s the Lonely Planet and it’s a picture of Coney Island. 	
LIZ	It must be Coney Island. 	
MAT	Oh no and I’m in ha!	
JOSLYN	It’s true. 	
MAT	The shame I’m a famous - oh no so I’m more famous for being in a freak show in Coney Island than...	
LIZ	Than for anything else. 	
MAT	... the ta... 	
JOSLYN	I’d say it’s an unaccredited photo so you should sue them or something. 	
MAT	I will I’ll sue Lonely Planet on your advice, thanks very much. 	
LIZ	Oh let me just squeeze round there, that’s right your large head and your ego are pushing me out the door now. Oh there we go. 	
MAT	Can’t blame me Joslyn mentioned it. How many pictures of Liz are in the book Joslyn? Oh none!	
JOSLYN	None so far. 	
MAT	Hm shame. Anyway we’re just joking. My head’s been squashed down to size by Liz Carr as usual. Over to you baby. 	
LIZ	Okay. Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch podcast have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must only answer yes or no. It is both classic and therapeutic.	
MAT	To take part in the intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Joslyn, are you disabled?	
jOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	90 seconds on the clock, your time starts NOW!	
MAT	Are you able to club a seal? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Are you a lumber jack? 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	And are you okay?	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
MAT	Given that one in six Canadians owns one, could you put on a Leonard Cohen LP? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Are you a mountie? 	
jOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	Can you ride a mountie’s horse? 	
JOSLYN	With some assistance. 	
MAT	Do you always get your man? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Did you ever watch Due South or Northern Exposure? 	
JOSLYN	Both. 	
MAT	Should you have been killed at birth? 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	Can you hear Alanis Morissette and Brian Adams? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
MAT	Okay do you have the full use of all your limbs? 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
MAT	Ah-ha!	
LIZ	Not all the... your legs have you got legs? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
MAT	Can you work them? 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	Do you use a wheelchair? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Do you use your arms? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
MAT	Are you... have you got a spinal injury resulting in paraplegia? 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	Did you have an accident? 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	Were you born the way that you are? 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Is it a... 	
MAT	Oh that’s difficult. 	
LIZ	... a neurological condition? 	
JOSLYN	A what? 	
MAT	Nerves love, nerves. 	
LIZ	Okay is it nerves... 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	... is it your nerves?	
MAT	All right. 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Oh. 	
MAT	Oh... 	
LIZ	Is it MS? 	
jOSLYN	No. 	
MAT	No because she was born like it? 	
LIZ	Oh. 	
MAT	No... 	
LIZ	I don’t know. Your legs oH God... 	
MAT	Polio, polio? 	
JOSLYN	No. 	
LIZ	Is it an obvious one or would we never have heard of it? 	
MAT	Ohh.	
LIZ	It’s not over yet. 	
MAT	No stop wait. ((buzzer))	
LIZ	You panicked and then you put me into a panic. 	
MAT	I’m sorry Liz I always panic when the music gets louder, they do that to pressure us. I hate that. We’ve lost again Joslyn. 	
LIZ	She could ride a mountie’s horse with difficulty. 	
MAT	She’s been like it since birth and it’s not snapback. 	
LIZ	I don’t, I honestly... 	
JOSLYN	Snapback wow that’s quite the term. 	
LIZ	Oh yes it’s medically recognised in the UK.	
MAT	Yeah and just so you know don’t blame me blame Liz it was her phrase. 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	Okay, come on put us out of our misery, Joslyn, what the ruddy heck’s wrong with you? 	
JOSLYN	Well you got close; I do have a neurological condition. It’s like Spina Bifida you may have heard of that? 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	We like bifis. 	
JOSLYN 	But it’s not... 	
MAT	We life bifos. 	
JOSLYN	... Spina Bifida, I’ve been born with a ((0:18:19?)) tumour on my spinal cord. 	
LIZ	Oh.	
	((recording repeating)) ((0:18:23.4?)) a bit like Spina Bifida but different. 	
LIZ	Oh my God we’ve got an alarm. 	
MAT	Dear oh dear. I’m sorry... I’m so sorry listeners our producer is an old Dr Who fan clearly of the old style. 	
LIZ	Joslyn what a fantastic... 	
MAT	Okay enough with the announcement we get it. 	
LIZ	Please stop it. 	
MAT	We get it. 	
LIZ	Wow!	
MAT	Wow that was shocking. 	
JOSLYN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Where did that come from?	
MAT	So, Joslyn, sorry say that again will you. And please in the room don’t do the noise again please. 	
LIZ	They’re going to. 	
MAT	Okay. 	
JOSLYN	Do you want to hear the full name? 	
LIZ	Yeah go on. 	
MAT	Yes please. 	
JOSLYN	Okay. It’s called ((Myelomeningocele?))	
MAT	Lipomyngin miners field?	
JOSLYN	Myelomeningocelo ((recording))	
LIZ	Joslyn...	
MAT	Stop!	
LIZ	... I think we might have to get you off because every time... 	
MAT	No. 	
LIZ	No? 	
MAT	But he word ‘ninga’ is in her impairment. 	
JOSLYN	No, no meningo.	
LIZ	Myninga.	
JOSLYN	I love that. 	
MAT	What’s up Myninga? 	
JOSLYN	I think I’m going to change the name... 	
MAT	What’s up Myninga you are a binger of American food intcha? Joslyn thanks ever so much for being on the show. Now we have a little gifty. 	
JOSLYN	Ooh. 	
LIZ	It’s going to be a memory stick or a mug or something delightful like that. 	
JOSLYN	Excellent. 	
LIZ	Do you have a preference? 	
JOSLYN	A memory stick would be lovely. 	
LIZ	Hey then it’s... 	
JOSLYN	((0:19:48?)) 	
LIZ	... cheaper and it’s winging it’s way to you in the next six months so... 	
JOSLYN	Ah thank you so much. 	
LIZ	Thanks Joslyn. 	
MAT	And come and see us when we tour in Vancouver won’t you now. 	
JOSLYN	Well of course I will. 	
LIZ	She’ll be there. 	
JOSLYN	All right. 	
LIZ	She’ll be there. 	
MAT	All right. Bye!	
LIZ	Happy Birthday!	
JOSLYN	Thanks. 	
LIZ	If you want to be the next contested on Vegetable, Vegetable, Vegetable email us now on ouch@bbc.co.uk
[Jingle: Say thank you to the BBC]
News time and this month we’re joined by disability consultant trainer and funny man, Simon Minty, to look at what’s grabbed his attention in the news media recently. Hello Simon. 	
SIMON	Hello Liz. 	
MAT	Hi there. 	
SIMON	Hi Mat. 	
LIZ	How are you? 	
SIMON	I’m not too bad thank you, I’m pretty good. 	
LIZ	Yeah I’m very thrilled...	
MAT	You're looking very well. 	
LIZ	... very thrilled you're here. 	
MAT	You’re looking very summery and breezy. 	
LIZ	He is. 	
MAT	Sorry to talk over you Liz.	
LIZ	He’s very... 	
SIMON	Thank you for being thrilled and I’m a bit hot actually it’s probably the other way. 	
LIZ	((0:20:36?))	
SIMON	I actually was a bit sick on the way here which is a bit weird. I pulled over to be sick, really it literally was, and then this old lady, I blocked the curb and she got very angry with me because my car was blocking the curb whilst I was vomiting - it was a nice sort of moment. 	
LIZ	Oh. 	
MAT	It seems to be a talk show theme... 	
SIMON	I think it happens... 	
MAT	... at the moment, vomit. 	
SIMON	Yeah, yeah, yeah. 	
MAT	It’s been mentioned in every talk show for the last five times. 	
SIMON	Sorry about that. 	
MAT	So you weren’t done for curb crawling then? 	
SIMON	No and it’s fine and I’m feeling okay now but... 	
MAT	Okay. 	
SIMON	... thank you for the slight breezy bit. 	
LIZ	Oh bless. 	
MAT	Now you’re looking very svelte and very attractive. 	
LIZ	What does that mean - svelte?	
MAT	It means he’s attractive and single girls. 	
LIZ	Ah interesting. 	
MAT	Okay. Simon’s a hunk there’s no two ways about it.	
SIMON	Oh for crying out loud. 	
MAT	And he’s looking for a girlfriend. 	
LIZ	Is this not like a dating agency. 	
SIMON	Eh, eh!	
LIZ	Oh look... 	
SIMON	((0:21:20?)) just happened. 	
LIZ	... did you see what he just did. He just kind of put his hair behind his ears like a “Oh no don’t, don’t.”	
SIMON	I covered this because I was very awkwardly embarrassed not coy. 	
LIZ	Oh no it was. 	
SIMON	No it wasn’t.	
LIZ	Look you’re blushing now. 	
SIMON	I can’t believe I’m your guest and you’re giving me so much grief. 	
MAT	I’m sorry. We’re here to do the news... 	
LIZ	Oh yeah not flirt and stuff.	
MAT	... and the news we should do.	
LIZ	Yes. 	
MAT	So before we get down to business is there anything else you’d like to say, Simon. 	
SIMON	I’d like to give you a little present as well because it seems to be the theme here. 	
MAT	It’s present time again ha!	
SIMON	It’s nothing in the league of Liz’s though because look they’re fantastic little sweatbands. 	
MAT	I know. 	
SIMON	But it does link to the first story. 	
LIZ	Oh yeah stinking rotten politicians. 	
SIMON	I know but I think Maltesers help to go a little way. Oh look at you, you’re looking so blank have you followed the news? 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
SIMON	This is one of the big stories - the MPs who were claiming for Maltesers at 45p. 	
MAT	45 pence!	
SIMON	Absolutely claiming it back in their expenses.	
MAT	What per Malteser?	
LIZ	If anybody has missed this story... 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	... what’s going on Simon... 	
SIMON	Essentially... 	
LIZ	... with the politicians. 	
SIMON	... beyond the Maltesers, the MPs in the UK House of Commons have been rumbled. They’ve have a lovely little system, it came about because they got embarrassed about putting up their salaries, so they decided to give themselves these allowances. Now they’re not expenses as we understand you give your receipts in and then you get your money back, this was just this allowance which gradually over the last 25 years people have thought well this is just my money to kind of use as I wish. 	
MAT	Wrong!	
SIMON	Yes. Now I think we’ve got to be careful some of them have been very honest; some of them have been pretty honourable but there’s just this absurd amount of stories, this is three weeks everyday... 	
MAT	I know it’s been going on and who knows by the time this talk show’s broadcast the whole of politics might have crumbled. 	
LIZ	But Simon, do you not think maybe disabled people should we be more angry about this subject maybe?	
SIMON	Well we could be, we could be very angry or, I mean, we could be thrilled as well because finally somebody else is getting it in the foot for being, you know, it’s supposed scroungers although I think the MPs really it’s kind of clear and obvious. I mean there are some bizarre stories. John Prescott who is our ex-deputy prime minister... 	
MAT	Or two jabs as we know him. 	
SIMON	Two jabs or jags? 	
MAT	Either way. 	
SIMON	Well I think he’s now known as two seats because he had to claim twice for his toilet seat being fixed. 	
MAT	Two lavs. 	
SIMON	Yeah two lavs nice that works. Now this is absurd I wonder whether he had another disability as well because he claimed money to get mock Tudor beams put on the front of his house. 	
MAT	Wow!	
SIMON	Which... it’s just kind of, but I should say this is not party political because you can just list the amount of people. 	
LIZ	But don’t you just get a bit riled because it’s like, you know, if we get the spotlight’s always on disabled people that if we’re mis-claiming or even if we’re claiming legitimately... 	
MAT	Absolutely. 	
LIZ	... legitimately spotlight on fraud something that we’re entitled to but then you get MPs, you know, playing all these games with expenses and really most of them, yeah a lot are saying I’m sorry but they’re still walking away with a lot of money and getting away scot free aren’t they? 	
SIMON	I think the whole tide has changed. Three weeks ago you couldn’t mention the word ‘fraud’ everyone was saying, “How dare you?” And now they’re saying, “Actually, you know, we think this is fraud” and there’s something... that’s the kind of the word... 	
MAT	People are talking about prosecution and stuff... 	
SIMON	Absolutely.	
MAT	... aren’t they? 	
SIMON	And if we’d done this we would have been out of a job. At the moment they’re slowly falling on their swords in like next time there’s an election. But there’s Anthony Steen who’s a Tory MP who’s great, he said, “This is all based on jealousy” and just he’s got a home like Balmoral which he said was just about suitable for his needs. It’s not terrible attractive. 	
MAT	Ah poor guy. 	
LIZ	Balmoral and Balmoral is where the Queen lives. 	
SIMON	It’s one of her... 	
MAT	It’s one of her many... 	
LIZ	One of her many homes so that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about. 	
SIMON	The bit that I loved and this is the disability bit, his best line he said “We have no right to know about his private life” which kind of made me think he’s never applied for disability living allowance has he, I mean goodness me they know everything. I mean getting a disabled person’s facilities grant it’s going to take six months, you get your moat cleaned in a couple of days if you’re an MP - it’s bizarre, it’s absolutely bizarre. 	
MAT	It’s unjust and wrong and something must be done about it. Don’t anybody say Oliver or Cromwell. Now, what’s Indonesia don’t really know anything about it but apparently there’s some new law that’s a cause for concern. What? 	
SIMON	This is one of those ones you can’t help laugh at really but you should be shocked. Essentially this is from Asia One News they’re based in Singapore. “Disabled pedestrians in Indonesia are required to wear signs identifying them as handicapped under new traffic regulations passed unanimously by parliament on Tuesday.” 	
MAT	What so what a massive... 	
LIZ	What would we wear? 	
MAT 	A hat saying riddled with Cerebral Palsy what?	
SIMON	Those sweatbands could be a start. 	
MAT	A big cardboard placard with a bit of string round your neck saying ‘Spas’ on it or something. 	
SIMON	This is the kind of ill--... what they were alluding to, it’s absolutely bizarre. And what they’ve said is this is a humanistic act and it’s for our safety on the streets so you know they’re looking out for us. 	
MAT	Ahh.	
SIMON 	The number one... the bit which is the sort of saviour as you kind of read more in this story everyone else is just going... they’re saying what you're saying “this is absolutely absurd it’s preposterous the government’s gone absolutely bonkers, what’re they doing? And what they’d be better off doing is sorting out proper cut curbs or footpaths or whatever it might be for disabled people.” My favourite line there was a reader, you can put comments on the end of the story...  	
MAT	Oh that’s nice. 	
SIMON	... and one of them says and you know what are the signs going to say, “I am blind” “I am deaf” “I am lame on one foot” okay now Mr Lawmaker what sign will you carry, “I am stupid” which I kind of liked I thought he’s getting his own back. 	
MAT	Absolutely. Wow!	
LIZ	Inaccessible accessibility down under Simon what’s this about, I’ve been there what’s going on? 	
SIMON	This is the Daily Telegraph but the Daily Telegraph of New South Wales... sorry. 	
MAT	Sorry listeners just so you know every time we say the phrase ‘New South Wales’ there has to be a two second pause afterwards. 	
SIMON	Oops. I hope I helped there. 	
MAT	And again to prove my point. 	
SIMON	Yes. So this is a station in a place called McDonaldtown, that’s one word I should say, it’s not McDonald second word Town, it’s quite unusual. But they’re saying this is Sydney’s stupidest station, McDonaldtown. The bit that they’ve done, and I thought we’d got beyond this but they’re still doing it, it boasts of a wheelchair accessible phone, whoo-hoo, and ramps for wheelchair users to get on and off trains. Absolutely fantastic. 	
LIZ	Sounds good. 	
SIMON	The one catch is you can’t get in or out of the station in the first place. There’s this lovely little line which I’m just trying to find, but in essence it’s saying “The only way...” these are their words, ‘wheelchair bound’ “The only way a wheelchair bound person could use the payphone would be to catch a train there, make a call and then catch a train back to a wheelchair accessible station.” 	
MAT	Wow!	
SIMON	Which I think is a ((treat?)) I have done... 	
MAT	Where’s this? 	
SIMON	McDonaldtown in... 	
LIZ	Have you not... 	
SIMON	... New South Wales. 	
LIZ	Not McDonald Town it’s one word. 	
MAT	In where was that? New South Wales?	
LIZ	New South... 	
MAT	Right. 	
LIZ	Anyway a great... 	
SIMON	It is a lovely story. I just thought we’d got beyond it there’s that kind of half thought through not really finished, they have a ferry in Hong Kong which I’m sure you've been on Liz and you can get up to the second floor of it, you go across you’re in first class, it’s lovely, but you can’t get off the other side so you have to come back again and then get the lift down. It’s just back and forth.	
MAT	Like in Greece when they had the Olympics and they built new accessible tube stations but the step to get into the tube station was too high for a wheelchair user so you couldn’t use it. 	
SIMON	It sounds about right. Ah it’s desperate. 	
LIZ	Mental is the new back pain. 	
SIMON	Yes. 	
LIZ	This sounds a happy story Simon. 	
MAT	Not just a statement from Liz but a feed for another story. 	
SIMON	I’m sure you’ll find an angle. And this is from Scotland on Sunday which is I think the Scotman’s equivalent on Sunday, surprisingly. Ooh that’s why I do the news. 	
LIZ	You’ve come out with some gems today. 	
SIMON	This is a story which I knew was around but it was just go--... well quite interesting to read. Scots, as in Scottish people, are claiming sick pay for depression and this number’s rocketed to more than 50,000 according to new figures produced by health chiefs. This is the Healthy Working Lives group at Glasgow University saying “One in six people who are on the £70 per week sickness benefit are blaming depression.” In 2000 the figure was 36,000. So we’ve gone up 14,000 six/seven years. The headline about being the new back pain you can see grafts where sort of ‘70s and ‘80s if people weren’t feeling well and they said they had back pain that meant they took time off work and that number rocketed and they were on incapacity benefit. 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
SIMON	As back pain changed and we realised we couldn’t always cure it mental health became the issue, and so as back pain numbers dropped people with mental health went up. You're looking at me really seriously... 	
LIZ	Well no, yeah because I’m thinking is it because it’s harder to diagnose so you can easily go in there and say “Well I’m feeling a bit...” whatever and who’s to say or argue against that. Do you think that’s what that’s about?	
SIMON	Absolutely. And I think back pain’s always been hard to treat but mental health is even harder in itself. And I think doctors what are happening I mean this alludes and the authors of the report are saying “We don’t think all these people have got depression and we’re medicalising something that actually maybe a social issue and it may not be as bad as we think.” Plus doctors are more likely to sign you off for a while. The bit that I'm finding with people I work with is how do you manage that in a work and that’s really difficult. You’ve got managers who are saying “I don’t know how to manage someone with a mental health issue.” 	
LIZ	But what if they wore kind of a placard that helps when they cross the road as well, would that be useful? 	
SIMON	Now you see that’s the sort of top tip that could work. 	
MAT	That’s what we should be doing. 	
LIZ	That’s what we’re here for. Finally... 	
MAT	Frightful flights. What’s all that about? 	
SIMON	We now have some the Civil... sorry the European Commission have got European laws which essentially as travellers, disabled travellers, we now have extra rights. ((0:30:50?)) 15 million flights are taken by disabled people in Europe every year from the UK. Essentially the CAA, Civil Aviation Authority, want to look at these rules they’re having... 	
MAT	Well good. About time. 	
LIZ	Wait... 	
SIMON	Hold your horses. 	
MAT	Okay, go on. 	
SIMON	Two months... 	
MAT	Sorry. 	
SIMON	The rules are great. Basically we’ve got more rights, airlines have got to speak to the people who push us around and get us on the planes, and they’ve got to be a bit slicker about it. What I'm worried about this consultation is about talking to travel agents, airlines and airport operators but not disabled people. 	
LIZ	Ah ha ha!	
MAT	Typical!	
SIMON	And I just think we should be saying sort of saying whether it works or not. But they are great when things go wrong I just mention them now and suddenly, nobody knows what they are, so everyone runs around and solves it. 	
LIZ	It sounds good though. 	
MAT	I still think... 	
SIMON	Absolutely. 	
MAT	I still think it’s the major, I mean, you know I’m not a wheelchair user so I don’t experience it myself but any time I see a wheelchair user in an airport you just... I just imagine the hassle, the stress, the delays and the lesser treatment they get, I’ve never... I think it’s one of the worst situations and inequalities to do with travel and disability that there is. 	
LIZ	And I can just imagine when you land or you’re about to get on the plane going “But I’ve got more rights now” and they just push you along and say, “Well that’s nice dear” you know.  	
SIMON	But you know, no, no a couple of times I’ve sort of said, “Can you make sure my scooter’s there” or “Can you make sure or this or that” and they’re like “Well it’s a bit tricky and we can’t always guarantee...” “You do know there’s the European Directives now” and they kind of go “Ah... 	
MAT	Oh really? 	
SIMON	... okay, okay”	
LIZ	It just sounds good. 	
SIMON	And even when I’ve said, “Oh no it’s gone the scooter’s gone off to the conveyor belt” I say, “But the European Directive means you’ve just broken the law” and they’re like “Well we’ll get it back, shall we get it back.” It... there’s something happens. 	
MAT	Ahh. So listeners let’s pressure this okay. We’ve got a window of opportunity start... now what is it again? It’s called?	
SIMON	Well the European Directives if you mention the European Directives... 	
MAT	Talk about the European Directives as you're booking your seat, wheelchair users. 	
LIZ	It’s holiday time so it’s come in at the right time. 	
MAT	I’m feeling a few upgrades are on the way. 	
LIZ	Simon, thank you so much for joining us. 	
SIMON	It’s a pleasure. 	
MAT	Lovely to see you as ever. Hunky and single as ever... 	
SIMON	Oh for crying out loud. 	
MAT	... but not for long hopefully. I’m sorry. 	
SIMON	For crying out loud. 	
LIZ	And if you’d like to contact Simon... 	
sIMON	Please, please thank you very much.
[Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch]	
lIZ	In the studio we’ve got none other than the learning disability Tsar, Scott Watkin. Hello Scott, how are you? 	
scOTT	I’m fine thank you. 	
LIZ	Good of you to join... You live in the Isle of Wight I believe and you’re commuting now. 	
SCOTT	I do I live on the island and I commute to London and I work in London for two days a week. 	
LIZ	Can I just say you’ve put us to shame because I think you are the best dressed guest we have ever had. So I want to find out a little bit more about what you're doing and who you are, but first let’s just find out a bit more about the job. 	
MAT	That’s right. So the power of people with learning disabilities is rising. New funding for independent living from government’s kicking in and people centred planning are the buzz words of the street. 	
LIZ	So to make sure they’re future’s being mapped out effectively in 2006 the Government appointed Nicola Smith, its first ever learning disabilities co-tsar. She had learning disabilities herself and now the relatively unknown Scott Watkin takes over the role. So that’s why you're here. So it’s a kind of... so, you know, what is a Learning Disability Tsar Scott? 	
SCOTT	Well it’s... we will be... my job is to implement value in people now and to deliver so that people with a learning disability have the voice and I will take their issues up to the Government level. 	
LIZ	So you work for the Government, you work for the Government’s Department of Health? 	
SCOTT	Department of Health yes. 	
LIZ	Okay. And basically you're there to sort of... as an advocate, as a spokesperson to make sure that these issues get heard and the voice of people with learning difficulties gets heard. Is that...? 	
SCOTT	Yes, yes. And if they’re not getting heard I... and if there’s they’re not... we’re not getting listened to at the top, me and my colleague, Anne Williams, will go and in force and make sure they get heard together. 	
LIZ	Okay. Fantastic. And why you, you know why do you think you got the post, what... why have you got the qualifications? 	
SCOTT	Well I had to do an assessment and I had an interview. And I think it’s because I can challenge people and I’ve ((never?)) been on the national forum or the regional forum for people with a learning disability and I’ve done local stuff. And I think that they wanted a fresh pair of eyes for learning disability. 	
LIZ	Because you’d done a lot on the Isle of Wight. You’d actually sort of brought the local council to task over some cuts, you know, is that right? 	
SCOTT	That’s correct. Me and my co-chair brought the Isle Wight council to task on some cuts because they were going to cut the adult services budget by five hundred thousand pounds. It turned out that it was going to be cut by one million and all it was is a silly little article in the One Island paper asking for the general public to vote on this. Me and my colleague, who also has dyslexia, we actually managed to get 150 people to a consultation where we got the director of adult and community services there. And they still went and did these cuts but the councillors said that the service on the island for people with a learning disability would be still at the same good and high quality standard as what they are now. 	
MAT	Wow! So you’ve obviously made a bit of a name for yourself in not taking no for an answer and trying to move things on. So congratulations on getting the post and everything, Scott, that’s really brilliant. 	
SCOTT	Thank you very much. 	
MAT	But I want to ask you this - a lot of time people get put in place in things and oh it’s new and it’s exciting and then they’ll come a time when you and the people you work for don’t agree on something. And they’ll be like, “It’s got to be like this, Scott” and you’ll be like, “No I’m sorry that’s not good enough it’s got to be like this.” Now what’re you going to do when that happens and they try and pressure you into, you know, doing it the old way? 	
SCOTT	Okay, well in every interview I've had so far they’ve all asked me this question. 	
MAT	Good. Good to know I’m original! Thanks for pointing that out Scott, but yeah carry on. 	
SCOTT	Okay. And so what I’ve said is that me and my colleague, the national director for learning disabilities, Anne Williams, we will always have disagreements about things, about issues within learning disability but we would work in a professional way and disagree and resolve the issue by talking about it and actually looking at both sides of the issues. And we would never fall out and have bad thoughts about each other. 	
LIZ	Tell us, you know, you got into this job, this incredible job, you've pretty much come from nowhere but you have ((0:38:13?)) so tell us a bit about you - are you married, you know we know you live in the Isle of Wight but what do you do when you’re there? 	
SCOTT	Well on the island I’m married to my wife, she’s actually in your control room at the moment. And so we got married in 2007 and planned our wedding through Personal Centred Planning. 	
LIZ	Oh okay what does that mean? I mean lots of people have a wedding planner, I’ve heard of that but I’ve never heard of somebody planning it through Personal Centred Planning how would you do that? 	
SCOTT	Personal Centred Planning’s about... 	
MAT	PCP as it’s called. 	
sCOTT	PCP as it’s called yes, is about getting a circle of support and having people to help you plan your wedding. So getting your friends to help you plan your wedding and getting them also to do some of the stuff for you. 	
LIZ	And do they pay for it as well? That would be nice if they did. 	
SCOTT	That would be nice yes, but we paid for the majority of the wedding ourselves. 	
MAT	But why did you go for that option, Scott of getting this supportive circle of people and then telling them what you wanted and how it was going to be and then them helping you do that?	
SCOTT	Because a) we wanted it for ourselves to be done our way; and b) we didn’t want it to be done in a way that social care managers and service land people do it. And we wanted to do it differently. 	
MAT	You wanted to do it your own way? 	
SCOTT	Yes. 	
liz	So do, I mean, do you in your own lives, I have personal assistants assist me, do you have support workers yourself and your wife, you know, does that work at home is that great?	
SCOTT	We have good support at home. Sometimes it’s not so good but generally it’s really, really good and we generally get all our... get everything done that we need to get done. But our support is mainly housing related support. So it’s working making sure that we pay our rent on time and all our bills. 	
LIZ	Now I was reading a very serious newspaper recently and it said that apparently people with learning difficulties, it was actually particularly people with Down’s Syndrome are always fans of Abba. Do you think this is true? This is cutting edge now.	
SCOTT	Most people with a learning disability if you mention Abba to them they go nuts. 	
LIZ	So you think this is true?	
SCOTT	Yes, yes. I mean... 	
MAT	Are you an Abba fan? 	
SCOTT	Not really, no. 	
MAT	Why not, what’s wrong with them? 	
SCOTT	Well there’s nothing wrong with them. I like to listen to things like Westlife. 	
LIZ	Oh no come on that’s not much better. 	
MAT	Ah more contemporary. What are you... whoa, whoa judgement lady! It’s more contemporary stuff you just... 	
SCOTT	Yeah. 	
MAT	... don’t want to listen to the old ‘70s stuff is that it? 	
SCOTT	No, no. 	
LIZ	No but Scott why do you think people with learning difficulties like Abba. What’s your theory? 	
SCOTT	Because I think it’s easy going and it’s good to dance to. Because if you notice a lot of people with a learning disability like to go to parties... 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Okay, Cool 	
SCOTT	... and stuff, so and I’m no exception. And we just... people with a learning disability like to socialise. 	
MAT	So are you going to be DJ at the Department of Health Christmas party then? 	
SCOTT	I doubt it somehow I’m not a very good DJ. 	
MAT	At least you know they’ll have at least have a little bit of Westlife in there. 	
SCOTT	Oh yeah definitely I’ll make sure they have a good knees up. 	
LIZ	Did you DJ at your wedding? 	
SCOTT	No I had... we got somebody with a learning disability to DJ at our wedding from the Isle of Wight Gateway Club. 	
MAT	Excellent!	
SCOTT	So it was all done through... everything I try and do I try to include people with learning disabilities. 	
LIZ	So do you think, you know, at the moment do you think there is a strong learning difficulty... learning disability community out there in the UK at the moment? 	
SCOTT	Yes. Yes I do. And I think there’s a... there is a voice but it needs to be a bigger voice and I’m out to improve that through self advocacy groups, and through making sure that they’re heard on their local partnership boards and through their local authorities. 	
MAT	Oh this is just... are you impressed Liz I’m impressed.	
LIZ	And I have to ask you don’t think... do you think this is real you don’t think this is a tokenistic post or anything, you know, you actually think you can make a difference. 	
SCOTT	If it was tokenistic I wouldn’t be sitting here now. 	
LIZ	Good.	
MAT	Good. 	
SCOTT	Because I’m really dead against tokenism. 	
MAT	Excellent. And with that agenda of not, you're not going to tolerate any tokenism and you’re here to do a job and do it well, what’s the first thing you’re going to be doing when you get back to your desk? 	
SCOTT	Today well actually it’s my day off. 	
MAT	You’re going to be doing the old expenses. No I’m joking. 	
SCOTT	No, no. Next week I’m going to give a presentation on Monday to the Royal Colleges of Nursing. 	
MAT	Wow!	
SCOTT 	And then... 	
MAT	Getting stuck in. 	
SCOTT	... and I’m also leading on some of the work on advocacy at the moment, because part of my role is to lead on self advocacy and make sure... and try to make it stronger and effective. 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	Fantastic. 	
MAT	I’m really impressed. I wish you the best of luck. 	
LIZ	There’s a lot of work to be done isn’t there out there I think. 	
SCOTT	There is a lot of work and there’s big challenges to go for me for the next three years. 	
MAT	Can you take the pressure, Scott?	
SCOTT	Yes. 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
SCOTT	Bring it on!	
LIZ	And what’s your ambition? What’s your personal ambition? 	
SCOTT	My ambition is to make sure that people with a learning disability lives change for the better and to make an impact. 	
LIZ	Good luck with that. It’s not to be an MP then? 	
SCOTT	No. 	
LIZ	Good. But you sound like...	
SCOTT	At the moment I wouldn’t want to be an MP. 	
MAT	Not a good time really is it? 	
SCOTT	No, no. 	
LIZ	It sounds like you have too much integrity. So good luck, good luck with that.	
MAT	Thank you so much... 	
LIZ	It’s great to meet you. 	
MAT	... Scott for coming in. Ladies and gentleman, Scott Watkin - what a man, good luck. 	
LIZ	He’s the tsar. 
[Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch. Ow!]	
MAT	Resplendently attired as I am in my Japanese sporting gear it occurs to me that one thing we didn’t talk about is the karaoke because that was invented in Japan and that’s what they do. Did you do any karaoke and did they think you were weird?  	
LIZ	Do you know what over in Japan it’s, as much as we now have coffee shops on every corner yeah and mobile phone shops, it’s the equivalent of that in Japan. 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	So every street corner there will be a karaoke place. But it’s not public it’s private karaoke where you go in. You know people will just be “Oh I’ve got off work a bit early I’ll go in for a quick hour of karaoke on my own in a private booth.” It was the best thing. 	
MAT	What you mean there’s no audience, there’s no other people there? 	
LIZ	Nope, nope. You go into a little... it’s a bit kind of cloak and dagger really. You go in there, you turn it on and as soon as you start to sing these flashing lights come out and there’s like this weird mural around the walls suggesting that you’re in a room full of thousands and that’s it, you just sing whatever you want and they have English translations and it was brilliant. 	
MAT	What songs did you do? 	
LIZ	Erm... 	
MAT	Come on you’ve got that guilty look, the guilty pleasures look what was it Did you ever know that your hero? Was it that? 	
LIZ	We did Turning Japanese. 	
MAT	Ooh you... ooh the Vapors classic. 	
LIZ	We thought that was really funny. 	
MAT	Decimated by, let’s face it, two lesbians in a karaoke booth in Japan. 	
LIZ	But can I just say... 	
MAT	What? 	
LIZ	Jo, my girlfriend yeah. 	
MAT	Hm-mm.	
LIZ	She does the best Cher. 	
MAT	What song did she do? 	
LIZ	Oh my Turn Back Time. You wouldn’t think it she’s as shy as anything isn’t she?	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Really, really shy. 	
MAT	I’m totally shocked to find that out. 	
LIZ	She was sober right, but it was in private she did with the whole ((imitating Cher))	
MAT	((singing)) Turn back time. 	
LIZ	She even put the black thong thing on which was incredible. So it was amazing. So, that’s a night to be planned. 	
MAT	Turning Japanese! Of course in that... I was once in a ferry in Sweden and we were delayed by four hours, it was back in the day of cassettes and I said to the... because I’d got bored with my mixed tape and I said, “Has anyone on this bus got something I can listen to on my cassette please?” Someone gave me the Vapors album. After three song I just gave it back because that is their best song Turning Japanese.  	
LIZ	But you know probably the other end of the spectrum in public karaoke to get into training for it I actually went to, I went to lesbian karaoke.	
MAT	Oh where, I bet that wasn’t in Japan was it? 	
LIZ	It wasn’t. 	
MAT	Was that anywhere near Dollywood? 	
LIZ	It was run by somebody called Miss Dolly who I assumed was going to be a drag queen but wasn’t. Right we turn up there’s some scary looking types in there. 	
MAT	What, what country? 	
LIZ	This is in Australia. 	
MAT	Okay. 	
LIZ	Okay so we’re in Australia. 	
MAT	Lesbian karaoke. 	
LIZ	And Miss Dolly is a woman, a real life honest to God woman. And in between the singers doing their stuff she like is hosting it and then singing it. 	
MAT	Okay. 	
LIZ	Right. So it’s a small room and I’m there in my wheelchair, Jo’s there she’s behind me right and we’re just like a bit agog we’re never going to do that publicly we just went to watch... 	
MAT	Okay. 	
LIZ	... and I’ve never been to a karaoke night, right. So really fun some dreadful singers. So there’s nobody to go up next. So on comes the... it was the Zutons now Amy Winehouse song called Valerie. 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	((singing)) Valarie do, do do - right okay. And there’s a woman in the audience who’s looking quite Amy Winehouse so the MC she’s singing away, she’s singing away and she goes up to sort of sexy Amy Winehouse and she’s gyrating next to her right. And then she spies me, okay? 	
MAT	Uh-ho. 	
LIZ	So she starts to gyrate a little bit and come over and I think my luck’s in and Jo’s standing behind me she thinks her luck’s in and we’re thinking yeah. So she leans over right, and she says to Jo “What’s her name?” 	
MAT	What on mic? 	
LIZ	Right to which Jo, you know, normally you might have a word like “Well ask her yourself” or whatever, no she goes “Liz” right which Ms Dolly mishears... 	
MAT	Oh no. 	
LIZ	... maybe I don’t even know. Then she starts to sashay away and go ((singing)) La, la, la, la Lizzy do, do, do and she replaces every Valerie with Lizzy.  	
MAT	With Lizzy awh! 	
LIZ	Moving away from me and instead of gyrating and dancing sexy to me there’s a little bit of like a bunny hop dance in front of me, like just this most patronising dance as if... 	
MAT	Yeah.	
LIZ	... I can dance with the cripple... 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	... whilst singing my name. 	
MAT	Did you then go up and do some filth filled lesbian torch song to teach her a lesson? 	
LIZ	No. You see that’s the thing I sat there, Mat, I sat there and did nothing. If anything maybe I just moved my arms a bit in a slight dancing movement. 	
MAT	Oh you colluded in her oppressing of you.	
LIZ	I so sorry and started to sing my own name to the lyrics. 	
MAT	I like the horse that you fall off. And you fell off that particular disability rights horse I feel. 	
LIZ	No but what...	
MAT	I think you need to go back and do ((singing)) And sometimes when we touch or something of the Dan Hartman classic of 1979, Liz. 	
LIZ	No but you've missed the target audience there but... and, you know, we left. We left about half an hour later because we wanted to leave a bit of distance and as I’m leaving on mic she’s like, “Well Lizzy’s going so the party must be over now.” 	
MAT	Did you have a word, did you have a word?	
LIZ	Man... 	
MAT	You just walked away never wanting to look back. 	
LIZ	We went to Japan. We went to Japan and hid it. But no I... 	
MAT	And funnily went to the home of karaoke and did you do any... well you did your private stuff. 	
lIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	But what I want to know is did you do anything in front of anyone? 	
LIZ	No. God no, no I’m not that kind of woman. 	
MAT	I wanted to know what the Japanese population thought of our lady cripple Liz. 	
LIZ	No, no. You know I’ve told you that’s... I think we all have those moments where you just think I can’t believe I just sat there and let it ha--... but what would you have done, what...? 	
MAT	Easy for me to say it’s like when you’re watching people in a quiz and they’re like “What is two plus two” and you're like, “IT’S FOUR, IT’S FOUR” but apparently it’s really difficult when you're actually in the quiz so I probably would have done the same, knowing, you know, because I know you and you're very forthcoming so to not be forthcoming it must have been the situation... 	
LIZ	It just... 	
MAT	... shut you down. 	
LIZ	I thought no I won’t... it’s actually a bit X-rated what I was going to do. You know in my ideal... 	
MAT	No, no, no x-rated ((0:50:56?)) 	
LIZ	So anyway so that was the karaoke. But, Mat, tell me are you planning for your future, are you, are you? Have you got a pension? 	
MAT	Ah. No never got a pension. 	
LIZ	Why? 	
MAT	Well I was about to get one and then all the pensions rubbish started over the last few years and I’m like, well great so all the people I’ve witnessed putting money into their pension on a weekly basis for the last 30 years have been well and truly shafted so there’s no way I’m wasting my money on that. I’ve decided that my half of the house, the aforementioned house I'm moving out of, as and when it gets sold that’s my pension. 	
LIZ	That’s your pension which used to be very common for... 	
MAT	Half a house is... yeah. 	
LIZ	... for people. 	
MAT	What are you doing? 	
LIZ	Well it’s been on the news, you know, that less and less of us are paying into a private pension obviously... 	
MAT	Yeah. Well do you? 	
LIZ	... a lot of people who are entitled to a state pension seem to think that’s going to be enough and so we’re not. Well absolutely not this is I wonder if it’s a crip thing as well or if it’s just a sign of the times and we’re all thinking ugh to hell with it, you know, if you put it into the banks or the pension funds they’ll lose it and ruin it anyway. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	So is it because of that or is it... no because I never think beyond, you know, getting to be 20 getting to be 30 getting to be 40, I’m 37 at the moment is like... 	
MAT	You don’t look a day over 36. 	
LIZ	... is, you know, it is always I think well I mightn’t make it. You know not because I particularly think I’m going, you know, fall over and die in the next day or anything but I just think that this whole overarching sense of being a disabled person or some of us with some impairments where it’s like well I’m not going to live to be old anyway so what’s the point in planning for the future. And hell if I do live to be that age I’m sure they’ll be a few grants, you know, and... 	
MAT	A high risk strategy if I may say so. 	
LIZ	Well maybe but I don’t own, I don’t own a property, my car’s on motorbil--... I actually don’t really, you know, I don’t own anything. 	
MAT	You could if you wanted in fact just relocate anywhere without too much stress couldn’t you? 	
LIZ	But no, I mean, because you were asking I was talking really excitedly about Australia, Australia was a great place. 	
MAT	I thought you were going to move there and leave us all. 	
LIZ	You know, my parents I think are like, “Oh she’s go..” but let’s face it somebody that needs and has so much support from the state from, you know, the UK Government’s social services in terms of the assistance I need. 	
MAT	Which you’re completely entitled to even though the system might be wrong... 	
LIZ	Absolutely. 	
MAT	... you're acting legally within it. 	
LIZ	Absolutely. There’s no way another country would let me emigrate there - no way, no way. 	
MAT	Why? What if you became famous as a celebrated comedienne? 	
LIZ	I think maybe if you have the money... 	
MAT	Oh I see. 	
LIZ	... and that kind of power. 	
MAT	Hm one law for... 	
LIZ	Don’t you think? 	
MAT	... rich and famous and one law for ordinary people. 	
LIZ	Wouldn’t surprise me. Wouldn’t surprise me. Or I bet you can spend as much in that country... 	
MAT	As you... 	
LIZ	... quite easily. 	
MAT	... bloomingly well want. 	
LIZ	As you’d want. But I think in terms of... 	
MAT	That’s a bit... that’s not right. Hold on, so to emigrate into a country you have to be able bodied is that what you’re saying? 	
LIZ	You have to, I mean, even when you apply for a visa even if it’s a, you know, I applied for a working visa when I went to Australia, it’s like, you know, “Are you able to look after yourself?” “Do you need” you know “any recourse to the state government for money?” “Will you need...” I think it’s like if you're going to be a drain on the state, which is how they see you in a way, then we don’t want you because we’ve got our own people to look after. You know and I don’t know if other people have found this but there were often, you’ll often see them on Ouch, you’ll often see them in the news generally that disabled people who’ve tried to emigrate have either been sent back or they’ve been refused entry - Canada, Australia, the States, you know. 	
MAT	What about Saudi Arabia what’s the record there?	
LIZ	Probably not one of my favourite places probably since I go out with a woman don’t you think maybe?	
MAT	Oh yes. 	
LIZ	It may not be top of the list for me. 	
MAT	No I suppose that whole pension should I spend money on it is a risk that we all take isn’t it? 	
LIZ	But I just, I do think it’s an added, you know, there’s that thing disabled people have... seizing the day, living today because you don’t know about the future. And you could say that, anybody could say that absolutely but maybe we have more of a sense - well, you know, 60/65 let’s... we don’t think beyond that. And, you know, anecdotally a lot of my friends don’t pay they do not worry about a pension.	
MAT	It’s a total waste of money then really? 	
LIZ	Well that’s what we’re thinking that. But we could all get shot because of course healthcare is improving...	
MAT	Shot? 	
LIZ	Shocked. 	
MAT	Oh sorry misheard you. 	
LIZ	Or shot in which case it really would be a waste. 	
MAT	We could all get shot because healthcare is improving, I’m thinking bloomin’ hell steady on! 	
LIZ	And we’re going to get to 60/65 and get a hell of a surprise. I mean I’d like to get to that point, I’ll be honest, I’d like to be around for a bit longer but...  	
MAT	I want you to be around forever Liz. 	
LIZ	Thank you. 
[Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch]	
MAT	That’s the end of the 40th talk show from BBC Ouch for June 2009. Hopefully next month we’ll get a brand new theme tune and start growing up a bit. 	
LIZ	Never. 	
MAT	Thanks to the production team as ever - Damon Rose, Emma Tracey, Vaughan Simons, Simon McPhilips and our studio manager for today Andy Ruston. And thanks to you listeners for listening. 	
LIZ	This is where, if we were allowed to, we’d announce that the Ouch talk show crew, minus Mat, will be doing a live version of the show somewhere in Hampshire in early July. That’s all I can say, sorry it’s beyond my boundaries to say any more. 	
MAT	Hm. We’ll both be back next month thankfully. And in the meantime why not email us at ouch@bbc.co.uk say hi and tell us all about yourself because we are fascinated to know where you listen to the show from. 	
LIZ	Music this month is from Al Cool and the Stranger Wines,  a London based sextet whose music has been described as sort of Latino/Indie/pop meets Afro beat with verve swagger and bites. 	
MAT	Wow that’s a hell of a mix. 	
LIZ	It’s quite something. 	
MAT	The band is at this year’s Glastonbury festival. They’ll be playing as part of the Attitude is Everything showcase alongside other disabled artists you’ll have heard on this show like Heavy Load and Spaceships Are Cool  which is in the Shangri-La zone on Saturday 27th June.  	
LIZ	Read more about them on their MySpace page. Myspace.com/alcoolandthestrangerwines and we’ll leave you with their track Six Flights until next time... 	
LIZ AND MAT	Goodbye.
[Playing music]