Ouch Talk Show #39 – May 2009
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Kiruna Stamell

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

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MAT	Hello and welcome to the Ouch Talk Show. 	
KIRUNA	Hello	
MAT	Yes it’s lovely Kiruna Stamell standing in for Liz again listeners. 	
KIRUNA	I survived last month. 	
MAT	You did and I’m proud of you. 	
KIRUNA	You know I puked in the taxi on the way home. 	
MAT	Did you? 	
KIRUNA	Yeah... 	
MAT	Wow!	
KIRUNA	... the taxi driver had an empty coffee cup and I kept filling it up and then tipping it out the window. 	
MAT	Who would have thought a little frame such as yours could even fill up one whole coffee cup let alone two. 	
KIRUNA	It can hold a lot of liquid. 	
MAT	Yeah I guess it can. Well, listeners, I’m afraid today I’m the sadly sick one. I received some food poisoning last night, yesterday and have been, well shall we put it this way, the bucket is next to me this month. 	
KIRUNA	So there’s a nice symmetry to that I think. 	
MAT	Hm. 	
KIRUNA	I’ll pat your back if it gets too bad. 	
MAT	Anyway, on that hilarious and fragrant note, listeners, I’d like to tell you that Radio 4 presenter and disability correspondent Peter White is here very shortly with... 	
KIRUNA	Woo-hoo!	
MAT	... his take on the month’s disability news stories. 	
KIRUNA	Yea! Oh and listen to this.
[Playing clip: It’s me
Of course it’s you, what’s the matter? 
Can you come home? I think I’ve gone insane.]
And that is a clip from the Dos and Don’ts for the Mentally Interesting - a new radio play based on the blog by Seaneen Molloy who joins us later for a chat. 	
MAT	Music this month is by young UK singer/songwriter called Chlay.
[Playing music]
More from her at the end of the show. 	
KIRUNA	And we look to the Department of Work and Pensions to find this month’s Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable. 	
MAT	And needless to say they’ll be plenty of disability observation and discussion throughout the show. 	
KIRUNA	You can find everything you could every possibly need to know about the show on the Ouch website at bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast including the chance to relive or catch up on every single one we’ve made so far. 	
MAT	Hm this is number 39 by the way. We’ve been at it a long time, listeners, and you've been with us all the way - we love you for that. Add us on Facebook by searching for Ouch BBC and receive regular Ouch updates including some Ouch Talk Show exclusives. The friend count has almost reached the 1,000 mark now so go make it happen. We’re still on Flicka and YouTube as well. 	
KIRUNA	So, Mat, what have you been up to this month? 	
MAT	I’ve been in Norfolk and Nottingham filming Channel 4’s Cast Offs with your very good self and four other ((cripplerly)) people. 	
KIRUNA	That is true, we’ve been running round the woods together working on a Channel 4 show called Cast Offs yeah with various different people with various different disabilities. 	
MAT	Let’s see we’ve got a... put a beat to this. 	
KIRUNA	A beat like... 	
MAT	Yeah give me a beat. 	
KIRUNA	((Singing backing beat))	
MAT	We’ve got a dwarf and a snapped back, a facial disfigurement, flid, a deaf person and a blind ((0:03:06?)) and it’s all very good. It’s not really... worst rap ever. Thank you. 	
KIRUNA	It was a crap rap. 	
MAT	Yeah well it was a crip hop crap crup flip flop flid rap. 	
KIRUNA	At least you gave it a go tried to spice it up a little bit. 	
MAT	But it’s been fun, listeners, and we hope that those of you with eyes and the ones who can see can watch it sometimes or the ones who... 	
KIRUNA	But we don’t want to dwell too much in our own nepotism. 	
MAT	No, no, no, no. 	
KIRUNA	Nepotism. 	
MAT	In work, you know, this is probably my most disability sort of full aspect of the month, you know, doing the podcast.	
KIRUNA	Yeah well it does take up your day from 5:00 am to... 	
MAT	But what I mean is I’m surrounded by other cripples and then recently we’ve been... the aspect I wanted to talk about was we’re working with and living with yeah four other disableds and it’s quite fun when you all get together on a proper job innit? 	
KIRUNA	It’s brilliant. It’s really interesting too to see how everybody’s needs kind of, you know, slot in together or are complementary or actually sort of disparaging. 	
MAT	Yeah like, flids out there with short arms, I know you’re going to appreciate this, but I was sharing with Peter the wheelchair user. Now he had a wheelchair caravan, that’s right we were in caravans, and so everything was very low - the sink, everything was low for the wheelchair user - not very good for a man with flippers I had to be on my knees to do the washing up because, of course, him being a young man he didn’t know that washing up actually had to be done, but there we go. Anyway, what else have you been doing? 	
KIRUNA	Ah I... 	
MAT	You do so much Kiruna. 	
KIRUNA	I know I do do a lot. I... 	
MAT	You’re a ball of fire. 	
KIRUNA	I’ve been working on that with you. God what else have I been doing? I’ve been trying to squeeze in an ordinary life around that. I went... 	
MAT	You an ordinary life! 	
KIRUNA	Well I went back home to Manchester for the first time in, you know, three months. 	
MAT	Hm how is Manchester ordinary? 	
KIRUNA	It was great, it was still there. 	
MAT	You’ve missed... I was opening you up for a plug baby. 	
KIRUNA	Oh yeah the TV show that I'm on!	
MAT	I do believe there’s a rather popular TV series on the BBC currently with you in it. 	
kIRUNA	I know it’s just I’m, I’m so humble I often overlook these aspects.	
MAT	That is one of the words I often think about... 	
KIRUNA	No I’m glad you’ve brought that up in a really obvious way, Mat, because I’ve been doing All... well All the Small Things was recorded last year but it’s actually on television on a Tuesday night on the Beeb now. 	
MAT	Starring Kiruna Stamell and Sarah Lancashire and some other actors. 	
KIRUNA	And I actually was walking along into work this morning to do this podcast and a woman fell at my feet and she looked up at me from the ground and she said, “Oh I tripped over because I was too busy looking at you.” And of course I immediately went like, “Of course you were like everybody stares me walking past, it doesn’t make you so unique but at least you threw yourself at the floor.” 	
MAT	Yeah.	
KIRUNA	But then she said, “But it’s because I saw you on telly!” And I was really chuffed, and she was like, “And you were really good.” And I was like, “Ah thanks.”	
MAT	Well you are good in it I think and if any of you haven’t seen it you should check it out. 	
KIRUNA	You know I haven’t actually seen last night’s episode yet, so we’ll have to see. 	
MAT	Hm. You see I had a very different staring experience this morning. I had one of your more usual disability staring experiences which was the lady opposite me was just staring at my hands. Two stops later looked up still staring at my hands. And you know they are interesting, I would give them a look but after two stops come on girl. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah there is a point at which the ((0:06:04?)) 	
MAT	So I doing this - perhaps you’d like to audio describe what I’m doing. 	
KIRUNA	Mat has got his little pinky finger caressing his... 	
MAT	Yeah I’ve got one of my fingers is inserting and retracting through a circular shape made by the other finger in repetition. Now I did that sign as if to say... 	
KIRUNA	Hello. 	
MAT	I’m aware that you're you know... 	
KIRUNA	Yeah, yeah. 	
MAT	And she looked up with the most affronted look. I said, “What? If I’d have been looking at your breasts for the last two stops you’d have been offended. Give me a break.” 	
KIRUNA	Yeah. 	
MAT	Then, obviously, a few of the other passengers looked at me and thought “Oh he’s a chippy one, look at him” you know. Anyway, Kiruna, I do have a problem. 	
KIRUNA	Well many I mean... 	
MAT	Yeah, yeah... 	
KIRUNA	... where do you want to start? 	
MAT	... okay, okay. The one I want to talk about today is that I find travelling, I’m doing a lot of travelling at the moment... 	
KIRUNA	Well so am I, I’ve only had 15 days in my own apartment this year. 	
MAT	Do you not find that packing and the lugging of one’s ((carriage)) is a major hassle in sort of disability terms. 	
KIRUNA	Well it is for me because I’m the size of my suitcase. Particularly because, I mean, this trip round I’m packing to go back to work to continue filming what we’re working on, but then straight from there I'm going to Australia for four weeks. So I’ve got my life on my back, I'm like a snail. But it does it really slows me down.	
MAT	I mean, I guess Access to Work being such a brilliant Government funded organisation that it is, I should have applied to them for somebody to carry my bags, but it just felt I don’t know, maybe I’ve got silly pride or something but it felt wrong. And now, of course, my ill equipped small arms are stretched beyond their capabilities and I'm regretting it. 	
KIRUNA	Do you know one benefit though of me lugging around a big suitcase? 	
MAT	What? 	
KIRUNA	I’ve got something to stand on to reach things.	
MAT	Ah. 	
KIRUNA	So it’s handy for that but to be honest yeah getting it up the steps at a tube station or... it is it’s a real pain in the bum. 	
MAT	Speaking of pains in the bum and inaccessibility on the La Havre to Portsmouth LD Ferries, I was a foot passenger. Now the foot passengers have to wait until all the cars and lorries have gone in. Then they have to get on an inaccessible bus where they’re taken to two flights of stairs up which they have to walk, along a corridor, down some more stairs to clear security. I looked around I thought well there must be a lift somewhere for if there are any wheelchair users or walking impaired people - nothing. And I did slightly question the level of disability service. 	
KIRUNA	Maybe they use a crane like for the cargo. 	
MAT	Oh yeah. 	
KIRUNA	Maybe... 	
MAT	Maybe they use the cargo crane. 	
KIRUNA	Maybe you’ve got to get in a cargo box, you know, because disability isn’t affected by ticking enough boxes now you’ve actually got to literally get in them. 	
MAT	Oh she’s clever you see. That’s the thing we love about Kiruna Stamell - she does all the flirty Australian blond thing and then she’ll wham you with something intelligent at the end. 	
KIRUNA	I just like cargo boxes though. 	
MAT	Yeah perhaps we should stop there with your little perversions. 	
KIRUNA	No it’s true. I’ve seen them used in different situations and I think they’re very handy things. 
[Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch. Ow!]	
MAT	It’s news time, ladies and gentlemen, and we’re delighted to welcome our very special guest into the fold to give us his take on this month’s disability stories. 	
KIRUNA	The BBC’s disability correspondent, Radio 4 presenter and recent winner of Comic Relief show Stand-Up With The Stars, Peter White is with us in the studio. 	
PETER	Thank you very much for that. So have I got to take off my Radio 4 voice and put on a different kind of Ouch voice? 	
KIRUNA	No. 	
MAT	Oh I would be intrigued to hear what that would be Peter. 	
PETER	Well I haven’t worked it out so...  	
KIRUNA	Well give us a bash try something a bit Ouchy. 	
PETER	I think I just shout a bit more don’t I?	
MAT	Ooh scathing. 	
PETER	And laugh a lot. 	
MAT	Scathing. 	
PETER	Satire from Mr White. 	
MAT	I totally missed Stand-Up With The Stars and Comic Relief what was that Peter? 	
PETER	Stand-Up With The Stars was a really strange thing which I was kind of attacked in the BBC corridor and made to do it. The idea was that four Radio 4 presenters would do a stand up performance - first of all they’d learn how to do stand up.	
MAT	Okay. 	
PETER	And then they would do it at the Comedy Cafe... 	
KIRUNA	Oh that’s ((0:09:48?)) 	
PETER	... in front of a real live audience. And then the listeners had to vote who they liked the best. And this was for Comic Relief that was the idea, something that I, you know, sometimes find myself criticising on programmes but... 	
MAT	Well absolutely. 	
PETER	... I still agreed to do it like you do. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
PETER	And I won somehow or other. 	
MAT	Congratulations. 	
KIRUNA	Brilliant. 	
MAT	Who were you against? 	
PETER	I was against Laurie Taylor, Libby Purvis and Today presenter Evan Davies. So they big, you know, big wheels big cheeses really. 	
MAT	And what kind of material did you do. Did you do blind stuff or...  	
PETER	I made fun of guide dogs mainly, which is given that one of my stories is about that... No I didn’t only do blind stuff but I did do a sequence about how all our equipment now talks to us and that blind people need never be lonely again because, you know, if nobody loves us and everybody thinks we’re horrible then our microwave will talk to us and our fridge. 	
KIRUNA	Or there’s always a machine. 	
PETER	Yeah. 	
KIRUNA	There’s a machine for everything. 	
PETER	And people liked that because, they know, they like disabled people being funny about themselves don’t they?	
MAT	Well I think one of the things that’s very important is that I think they’ve been brought up - ‘they’ being the non disabled general public, have been brought up to think that we’re a little bit touchy about it all so if we can show that we’re laughing about everything that relaxes them I think. 	
PETER	And the advice I got was “You’ve got to give them permission to laugh” that’s what people kept telling me. I said, “I don’t care whether they’ve got permission to laugh or not I thought the basic idea was to be funny.”	
MAT	We’re going to go into the news stories now. They call her Susie Simple now obviously we know that’s Susan Boyle but why is she having the last laugh Peter? 	
PETER	Well first of all I mean she’s wowed all these horrible people who seem to think it’s funny to attack people on television. I have to say I didn’t see this because I just hate the genre that says that it should be fun to attack people for entertainment purposes. So I’ve been a bit sniffy about the whole thing. 	
KIRUNA	It has got a bit vicious on television. 	
PETER	Oh God I just hate it. But Susan Boyle came along, she sings, she’s sung all her life.	
MAT	Who is Susan Boyle? 	
KIRUNA

PETER	And she was first seen on Britain's Got Talent – that's right, isn't it?
That's right. Susan Boyle is a Scottish lady, she’s 48 and she’s a spinster which everybody seems to think is very important. And she is described as having mild learning disabilities. 	
MAT	Oh she’s one of us. 	
KIRUNA	And she’s a bit of... 	
MAT	Oh that’s the whole point. 	
KIRUNA	... daggy dresser as well. 	
PETER	Yeah they were a bit rude about her dress and they said it looked like it had come out of a ‘local boutique’ was the phrase that the newspapers used. 	
MAT	The height of insult ‘the local boutique’. 	
PETER	What’s wrong with going to a local boutique?	
MAT	That’s ridiculous. 	
PETER	But she, her performance absolutely wowed everyone and she’s now already the great Simon Cowell is alleged to be sorting her out a contract and she’s been on CBS and she’s been interviewed by everyone in the world. 	
MAT	Wow! 	
PETER	I mean what worries me about these programmes is, you know, the fact of what they can do to people. And I would worry about that is that I suspect that Susan Boyle who’s been teased by kids in her local village and had them coming and knocking on her door and taking the mickey out of her “Susie Simple, Susie ((0:12:44?))” I think she’s probably better equipped than almost anyone to deal with Simon Cowell... 	
KIRUNA	To deal with the media scrutiny. 	
PETER	Yeah. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
PETER	So I suspect that she will come out... because she’s talking, you know, very sensibly about the whole thing and she knows... 	
KIRUNA	That’s was where she first came out.	
PETER	That’s right. But it, I mean, the fact is she obviously has been taken to the publics’ hearts which probably means she’s going to win and may mean that she’ll make a great... I think she’s... already it looks like she’s going to make a great deal of money. 	
KIRUNA	Now something else that’s breaking into the mainstream seems to be mobility aids who have cracked the supermarket. 	
PETER	That’s right. This is again this intrigues me - Asda and it’s not just Asda the Co-Op are doing it as well - they are selling what are described as ‘living aids’. And I think what living aid basically means is stuff that helps us do things. 	
KIRUNA	So what kind of things might that be? 	
PETER	Things like, well urine bottles which I’m sure, Kiruna, you use all the time. 	
KIRUNA	Yes. 	
MAT	I see her using it every day, she’s using one right now. 	
KIRUNA	You know I have had three coffees today so it wouldn’t surprise me. 	
PETER	I’ve had a couple of cups of tea as well. Urine bottles, things that help you screw difficult lids off of jars. 	
KIRUNA	Oh now that’s something I could use. 	
MAT	Totally yeah. Actually so what are these... because they used to have... or maybe they still do, we used to have one in Teddington where I live, a mobility aid centre and it was stocked full of all that kind of stuff. 	
PETER	But normally you see you've had to go to places that are kind of either run by, you know, charities, or they’re run by the Social Services, and what they’re saying is that this is a really big move because it deals with the stigma. Now I do rather question that in the sense that, you know who put the stigma there in the first place. You know why they’re doing it, and I don’t blame them for this, but there’s money in it - lots and lots of money in it. Now that the demographics are the way they are about... and we’re dealing not only with younger disabled people but, of course, as the numbers of people who survive into great old age there are going to be loads of people who need these kind of things. 	
MAT	But isn’t it good though because... 	
PETER	I think it’s completely healthy yeah. 	
MAT	Yeah because I read briefly online and I saw flash past me a wheelchair for forty nine quid. Now that can’t be bad. 	
PETER	No I thought it was sixty nine. 	
KIRUNA	For that price I want one!	
MAT	Oh sixty nine but even then. 	
PETER	The price has gone down already. 	
MAT	Maybe it was a sale on. But even then sixty nine quid’s a lot cheaper than some of my wheelchair using friends have told me that their wheelchair cost. 	
PETER	Yeah, it’s a fold up one. 	
KIRUNA	And you know what I have the feeling that if I was to pop along there’d be things there that I didn’t even know I could use that would be helpful that I might just grab off the shelf. 	
MAT	I like having those can opener helpers because I’ve got no thumbs. 	
PETER	Oh yeah ring pulls for things. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
PETER	The one thing that some people are saying, “Ah but what about the advice all these vulnerable disabled people need to buy these things?” And, you know, I must say I think that’s a rather patronising take on the whole thing. And you're quite capable of getting really appalling advice from Social Services and from charities. I think the fact of the matter is people... who’s the best judge basically the person who’s buying the stuff. They need to put a few safeguards in the way but no more than are needed for the rest of the public when they buy things.  	
KIRUNA	I can imagine teenagers buying a cheap wheelchair and racing one another up the street.	
PETER	Up and down the aisle probably. 	
MAT	So on to the next one. What’s all this about Sat Navs for guide dogs Peter? 	
PETER	I love this story. I should make it clear I’ve got nothing... 	
MAT	Please do. 	
PETER	I’ve got nothing against guide dogs... 	
MAT	Hm sure. 	
PETER	... nothing at all. 	
MAT	No nothing. 	
PETER	I love doggies. 	
MAT	Hm you’re famous for it. 	
PETER	I’ve got two of my own. What I do hate is the hype that surrounds it and the way in which, you know, if you've got a blind nuclear physicist and a guide dog the public, and to some extent the association, will assume that it’s the one with the brains is the dog. Anyway what they’ve done is they’ve fitted guide dogs with sat navs, if I’ve understood this right, and of course the guide dogs, therefore, will have it implanted into their brains and told which way to go - no that’s not true. 	
MAT	Cut!	
PETER	What will actually happen it’ll be on a harness, the sat nav will be on a harness, and you the blind person as always is the one with the brains and will be programming the route that they want to go and then the thing will vibrate either on the left or the right of the harness itself and tell you...  	
MAT	Oh I see. 	
PETER	... which way to steer the dog. 	
MAT	I thought it would say, “Turn left now.” 	
PETER	And the dog having learnt English from Stephen Hawking...	
KIRUNA	No but it’s actually though that sounds to me that it’s actually the blind person reading the sat nav and then translating that for the dog. 	
PETER	Effectively that’s exactly what it is, well summed up - so that you know that you should go right and you know that you should go left, so you’re actually steering the dog. What did worry me that the bloke who’d invented this clearly asked for a quote from one of the papers said, “Well of course the trouble is you give blind people ordinary sat nav they’ll just walk out into traffic” which of course we do all the time.  	
MAT	Yes because you can’t hear anything. 	
PETER	Because we can’t hear anything. 	
MAT	Dear oh dear!	
PETER	And none of us can survive without guide dogs. But I mean, to be fair, this is probably combining two bits of technology - the dog and the sat nav - and putting them together and I see no reason why it shouldn’t work perfectly well. 	
MAT	Come on babe next bit.	
KIRUNA	Ooh this bit really excites me - the stem cell research for macular degeneration which is often associated with aging. Tell us a bit about that. 	
PETER	Indeed. Well this is the biggest cause of blindness in Britain... 	
MAT	Yeah well known. 	
PETER	... and may well be in the world but you’ve got lots of nasty bugs and flies and things in other parts of the world that also do a pretty good job in making people blind. This is stem cell technology basically. 	
MAT	Hoorah!	
PETER	It’s happening up the road at the University College London and what’s happened, in this case, is that one of the big pharmaceutical firms, Pfizer, has said that they will work alongside them, and this is a good pharmaceutical company story believe it...  or it looks as if it is, because they’re putting quite a lot of the money so that they can go on with the research. The important thing to say about this because the newspapers can’t resist the lure of the cure when they do this story... 	
MAT	Yes indeed. 	
PETER	... and this is not an out and out cure. What this is you’ve got to be really careful that you say to people this will deal with early onset macular disease. In other words you’ve still got to catch it fairly early. If you've had macular disease for 10/15 years this probably won’t help. But... 	
KIRUNA	It’s too late. 	
pETER	It’s too late I’m afraid and people have to be realistic and the papers never put that. But, nonetheless, Pete Coffey, who’s the scientist in charge of this who I do trust, does say that this could have a really big effect that actually thousands of people in the end could get this treatment which is basically replacing duff cells with good cells and that this could mean that you could halt the vision impairment and maybe reverse it in some of these cases. 	
KIRUNA	But it’s a bit broader than that too isn’t it. I mean potentially if this is, you know, replacing sort of aged cells... 	
PETER	Oh God it... 	
KIRUNA	... we could live forever - maybe this is the fountain of youth. 	
PETER	Well this isn’t the first time that they’ve used it, they’ve done some research for this, for instance, on spinal cord injuries and, you know, there are all sorts of areas. The eye apparently is particularly good for this because it’s a little kind of enclosed place and things don’t wander about. So you can put... 	
MAT	Rather like...	
PETER	Yeah.	
mat	... penis. 	
PETER	Possibly. 	
KIRUNA	Why what sort of stem cell research do you need to help you out? 	
MAT	Stop it, don’t get smutty. 	
PETER	It could happen, it could happen. But at the moment I'm concentrating on the eyes. And they’re very confident that there should be really effective treatments using this in five or six years. 	
MAT	Wow well we’ll have to listen to that space. Right, now we know that Stephen Hawking has been ill, Professor Stephen Hawking has been ill. I read that he’s on the road to recovery which is great news. 	
PETER	It is. 	
MAT	Good, good for Stephen. But there’s a bit of a furore. There was a cartoon ‘Stephen Hawking’s ill’ or something like that and apparently the comedy line was “Have you tried switching him off and switching him on again?”	
PETER	Yeah. 	
MAT	And you know Disability Now and 5Live and a lot of people, you know, it’s a bit of a... 	
PETER	Stephen would laugh. 	
MAT	Well that’s the thing. 	
PETER	Stephen would laugh. 	
MAT	You know him do you? 	
PETER	I know him yeah. 	
MAT	Are you mates? 	
PETER	No I wouldn’t say we were ‘mates’... 	
MAT	But you've interviewed him. 	
PETER	I’ve interviewed him. 	
MAT	Huh-ha. 	
PETER	And I've waited for about half an hour while he writes the answer because I’d asked him to do in advance and he hadn’t done it. 	
MAT	So typical scientist.	
PETER	Slap on the wrist Stephen.	
KIRUNA	To me that’s more of an IT gag. 	
PETER	Yeah. 	
KIRUNA	Rather than disab--... 	
PETER	No I don’t have a problem with that. 	
KIRUNA	... you know what I mean. 	
PETER	I think it’s quite funny. 	
KIRUNA	Seeing how you see it as being ((waited?)). 	
MAT	I’m glad you two thing that because I secretly thought that was quite funny myself. 	
PETER	I think Stephen if he’s well enough when he sees that will have a chuckle. 	
MAT	All right. Peter, thanks ever much for coming in that’s been enormously entertaining as ever. And good luck with the new comedy career. 	
PETER	Yeah. 	
MAT	Are you going to do more? 	
PETER	I’m thinking of going out on the stump and doing a one man show. 	
KIRUNA	That’ll be brilliant. 	
MAT	You totally should. And if you do you must come in and talk about it with us. 	
PETER	Oh right, I will. 
[Jingle:
Dry your eyes and listen in
Disabled
Mat Fraser
Disabled
Liz Carr
The Ouch Podcast]	
MAT	Our guest this month is a phenomenon all on her own. In 2007 just out of hospital and struggling to manage a brand new diagnosis of Bipolar Disorder Seaneen Malloy began to write about her experiences on the web. 	
KIRUNA	And two years, hundreds of posts and thousands of comments later Seaneen’s blog is the base for a new Radio 4 play, Dos and Don’ts for the Mentally Interesting, and she also write for the Ouch website. Seaneen is here in the studio. 	
SEANEEN	Hello. 	
KIRUNA	Hello. 	
MAT	Seaneen love, not Seaneen. You go on about not Kiruna, Kiruna get the name right. 	
KIRUNA	It’s Seaneen. 	
SEANEEN	It’s because I’m not even entirely sure. 	
KIRUNA	Seaneen and I'm... wait, wait am I doing this right - Seaneen.	
SEANEEN	Yeah, yeah that’s right. 	
KIRUNA	Seaneen. 	
MAT	For an Australian that’s about as well as you can be expected to do it. 	
KIRUNA	So what was it like to have a radio play made about your life? 	
SEANEEN 	Surreal, it’s just weird for something to take a very outside perspective on something very personal.	
KIRUNA	And it was about your period of life in 2007 and what you were going through then? 	
SEANEEN	Yes. It was just pretty much just after I got out of hospital. 	
KIRUNA	Okay. 	
SEANEEN	And yeah when I just started writing about everything. 	
KIRUNA	Was that your first time in hospital? 	
SEANEEN	Yeah. Yeah it was a big one. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah. 	
SEANEEN	Yeah when I landed myself in... I got sectioned so fun and joy really. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah. And what was that like? 	
SEANEEN	Boring more than anything else, it was a really, really dull time, there was absolutely nothing to do. 	
KIRUNA	And how does being section work, what was... you know what led up to that and how did flow I guess?	
SEANEEN	Oh I was just having a bit of a breakdown and I’d started to suffer from psychosis and psychotic mania, so I was marched to the ERC and got a telling off by psychiatrist, social worker and they go, “We think you might be best here for a few days until we figure out what’s wrong with you” and it was yeah just kind of a holding ((pattern?)) where they calmed me down. And then you get a proper meeting with a psychiatrist and then he goes, “Ah ha I think this is what’s wrong with you” and people go, “Yes I agree.” And then they discharge you back into the community with a crisis team. Not dramatic and glamorous as it is depicted in films and stuff. You know, there’s no restraints or being carried or being locked up or anything. 	
KIRUNA	Okay. 	
SEANEEN	It’s just a bit dull. 	
KIRUNA	We’re about to play a clip from the play and this is the section of the play where you actually you receive your diagnosis. 	
SEANEEN	Okay. 
[Playing clip: You’re very manic at the moment. You said you were hearing music. 
I’ve just had a lot of coffee. 
You were repeating lines from Silence of the Lambs. 
So? It’s marvellous. 
You’ve had hallucinations and your speech is what we call pressured.
I always talk fast I’m Irish for God’s sake.]	
MAT	Wow that sounds really funny. 	
SEANEEN	Yeah. 	
MAT	Oh look you’ve freaked out a bit - are you okay? Does it sound weird?	
SEANEEN	Yes it’s someone imitating me and you know imitating... it’s a scene from my actual life. 	
MAT	As we mentioned in the intro the play’s based on your blog Pole to Polar and Secret Life of Manic Depressive.	
SEANEEN	Yes.	
MAT	What made you want to start writing about your experiences ((0:24:48?))	
SEANEEN	Well you know freshly despatched into the community with my little label spinning round my head. It was... even though I hadn’t been well for quite a long time it was still a bit shocking and it’s kind of... that kind of thing is too much to put on one person. You know, you can’t just have like one person you talk in trying to work through it all and you need a bit of perspective, and I write about things anyway. And yeah I just wanted to one kind of keep a record of where I was and see where I was going. And to try, you know, I made it public so that other people could chip in and so I could find out about other peoples’ experiences as well. 	
MAT	So there are quite a few mental health blogs out there.	
SEANEEN	Yeah there are many. 	
MAT	What do you think makes yours so different?	
SEANEEN	You see that’s difficult because I write it and I don’t have any sort of... I don’t attempt to write it in a different way. But the stuff people say about it that they like about it is... 	
MAT	Yeah what do they say? 	
SEANEEN	They think it’s funny. It makes them laugh about something that’s kind of seen as very tragic but people are slightly, you know, it’s slightly a taboo subject you can’t really make jokes about mental health because, you know, it’s so serious. 	
MAT	Yeah, you know, disabled people are used to that. I suppose the extreme level of it “Oh no you can’t joke about it” is the mental health aspect of disability I think isn’t it? 	
SEANEEN	Yeah. Such things like suicide is taboo and psychosis and those things you just don’t talk about. 	
KIRUNA	It’s interesting though in that it is quite common. I mean my own experience last year was my mother developed a mental illness and was hospitalised with it. And you realise, you know, how many people out there have these experiences. And when you start to come out and admit to having an experience of it everybody else comes out of the woodwork and everybody knows somebody. 	
SEANEEN	Yeah that’s true. I mean there tends to be yeah a kind of a chain reaction when you mention you’ve got a mental health problem, which is why blogging’s good because you know one person comes out and then there’s like, you know, ten more people and then ten more people. The kind of the blogging thing is just... when I started mental health blogging there was only about four or five I found and then it’s just kind of people as more people speak out it kind of sets off a chain reaction. 	
MAT	Nice. 	
SEANEEN	In the real world as well. 	
MAT	Let’s have another clip from the play of Seaneen writing the insane guide to the psychiatric appointments for her blog. 
[Playing clip: Number one: Look like crap. Everybody knows that mentalists don’t know how to take a brush to their teeth and hair. You may want to tart yourself up a bit for the sake of politeness but mental people don’t care about their appearance. And if you do then you don’t have any mental problems at all and the psychiatrist will know that. 
Take a seat. 
Dribble some. Throw on your most stained slacks and if you must wear makeup apply it with the skill of a drunken two year old.]	
KIRUNA	It’s a very honest blog does that cause any problems for you in real life, do you find it spilling over into the real world? 	
SEANEEN	It can be problematic sometimes because you’re sharing with quite a large audience you can sometimes lose the skill of confiding in one person. But the only people in my actual real life who read it are my boyfriend, Rob, and my family. And I think they actually find it quite useful because it’s a kind of digestible, accessible way of maybe accessing something that is difficult to kind of verbalise and talk about. So it’s kind of a touchstone for them to get a measure of where I’m at so they can, you know... 	
KIRUNA	And do you find it a useful tool as well for yourself?	
SEANEEN	Yeah totally, I mean, it’s been such a really valuable insight into where I’ve just been in the past couple of years, you know, I haven’t got the best memory like a lot of people with mental health problems. So it’s just kind of been a chart of my progress and... 	
KIRUNA	Now you’ve mentioned Rob and we’ve actually got a clip from the play which features a section about the relationship between... 	
MAT	Hmmm.	
KIRUNA	... Seaneen and her boyfriend Rob. 	
MAT	Seaneen. 	
KIRUNA	Seaneen I’m trying. 
[Playing clip: What about your pills then? 
Yep I’m just coming on to that. 
No I meant have you taken them?
Not yet. 
Come on you’re vibrating I’ll, I’ll, I’ll get them. 
I don’t want you to dish up my medication you’re not my nurse. 
Shame I think I’d look great in one of those little outfits. 
You haven’t got the legs for it.]	
MAT	Now we often talk on the podcast about how physical disability can affect your relationship with your partner, you know, like the partner or PA discussion thing. Do you think that applies to people with mental health problems as well? 	
SEANEEN	Yes completely. 	
MAT	Yeah? 	
SEANEEN	They can be so incapacitating that you can’t physically do very much for yourself. You know there’s times when you have trouble with personal hygiene you have to get some help being washed. And cooking is difficult and, you know, just the motivation to do things. And also where you can have problems with insight and impulsivity so you have to kind of physically be dragged away from the road sometimes. 	
MAT	Oh God. 	
SEANEEN	And you know they have to keep an eye out for you and sometimes that can involved interventions so it tends to change the dynamics of the relationship a little bit. You know the kind of carefree boyfriend/girlfriend, boyfriend/boyfriend kind of dynamic shifts. I’m sorry I’m shaking this. 	
MAT	It’s okay, I should explain to the listeners that the tinkly, tinkly sound you can hear is Seaneen’s bracelets which are very attractive. 	
SEANEEN	I’m fidgeting I’m sorry. 	
MAT	That’s fine. If they’re your worry beads for the day that’s fine by us isn’t it.	
SEANEEN	Yeah I can’t help my fidgeting. 	
MAT	What the hell it doesn't matter. Now look, Seaneen, the play’s based around your life in 2007 but you're still making your way through the mental health system in Britain, so do you have any advice for listeners who might be where you were then in 2007 who are listening? 	
SEANEEN	Yes stick with it for one. In the beginning you will have to take quite a lot of medication to find something that works and it takes perseverance and time. And to attend your appointments and to try and be honest with people about what you're going through, disclosure with anybody can be tricky but I find that it’s best to start out honestly so that you can get all the support that you need from whoever you need it from.  	
MAT	That does sound like good advice. 	
KIRUNA	And how do you feel about where you're at now? 	
SEANEEN	I’m not unrecognisable ((0:31:19?)) years ago, I’m still kind of going through similar stuff but to a less severe degree. But yeah a lot better actually, you know. 	
MAT	Okay. Good. I will do you a deal, Seaneen. 	
SEANEEN	Yes. 	
MAT	You have a gorgeous voice I think if you plug the podcast by saying, “Hi I’m Seaneen Malloy and when I’m not what... insert phrase there to do with your impairment if possible, I’m listening to the Ouch Talk Show” and then I will plug your show. 	
SEANEEN	Okay. Hi, I'm Seaneen Malloy and my absolute favourite thing in the entire universe is to listen to the BBC Ouch Talk Show - it’s fabulous. 	
KIRUNA	Woo-hoo! 	
MAT	But not as fabulous as the play Dos and Don’ts for the Mentally Interesting which can be heard on Friday 8th May at 2:15 on Radio 4. Seaneen’s regularly updated blog can also be found at mentallyinteresting.org.uk. That mentally interesting as one word .org.uk. Seaneen, thank you. 	
SEANEEN	Thank you very much. 	
KIRUNA	Thanks for coming in. 
[Jingle: This is the Ouch podcast from the BBC in London.]	
MAT	Disability in the old workplace Kiruna. 	
KIRUNA	Yes. 	
MAT	It’s a funny old subject isn’t it? 	
KIRUNA	It is, you know, it raises a whole set of issues really in terms of do you identify as being disabled, what are you entitled to, what are your rights. 	
MAT	And you know the Disability Discrimination Act’s final part came in what two years ago, so I mean we’ve had it around for ten years now so technically people should be able to go, “Hey guys” you know, “I’m disabled, this is my deal I need this help” and expect it. 	
KIRUNA	It’s interesting though because I know from, well my sisters have the same condition as me and... 	
MAT	Your sisters being Peta and...?	
KIRUNA	Melanie. 	
MAT	Hi Peta and Melanie. 	
KIRUNA	Who actually they do both regularly listen, so hi. So I was saying a story about my sister Peta, the job that she had quite recently where she was trying to get changes made to the building and the workplace environment and there was another disabled employee. 	
MAT	Is she a bit of a militant? 	
KIRUNA	She is a bit. 	
MAT	Hm-mm good we need them. 	
KIRUNA	But the other disabled employee... 	
MAT	I know.	
KIRUNA	... didn’t identify as having a disability so she was trying to fly the flag and actually make changes but kept finding herself in some ways copping it from both sides - from the employer but also her comrade, who didn’t identify as her comrade, also made it quite difficult for her to then try and get the changes made to the business that she needed to get made. 	
MAT	First telly I ever did, and I’m not going to mention names here it was a long time ago, there was a wheelchair user on it and they called the first rehearsal up two flights of stairs, and I pulled the producer to one side and said, “Do you think this is really appropriate” and the wheelchair user gave me a b********** afterwards. “Don’t cause trouble Mat.”	
KIRUNA	I know there’s a lot of that. There’s “Don’t rock the boat” in the sense there is still that attitude of oh you’re really lucky to have a job. 	
MAT	I know, I know. 	
KIRUNA	And people... 	
MAT	And we’re not. 	
KIRUNA	No. 	
MAT	We’re just as skilled as everybody else and we need a bit of access. 	
KIRUNA	And research continues to show that disabled people are often over skilled for the positions that they’re in. 	
MAT	There’s less absenteeism.  	
KIRUNA	Amongst the disabled community in the workplace. 	
MAT	Disabled workers are absent less. 	
KIRUNA	Well because in some way we’re more desperate. We don’t feel that we’re entitled to things that we’re entitled to. And, you know, it really boils my blood.	
MAT	A cup of water. 	
KIRUNA	Please Sir can I have a tea break? 	
MAT	No. 	
KIRUNA	Can I have a toilet that I can access? 	
MAT	No. 	
KIRUNA	Can I have a desk? 	
MAT	No. 	
KIRUNA	Please give me a workstation? 	
MAT	Yeah but... 	
KIRUNA	I mean in the public service you're lucky to have a workstation in the first place. But the point is there needs to be a little bit more sort of fist in the air “I’ve got a disability what’s your issue with it? This is what I need to do a brilliant job for you because I’m worth it.”	
MAT	Or maybe that when, at the point of entry into the workplace the disabled person needs to sort of say... you know because that’s the whole thing about Access to Work the Government funded... 	
KIRUNA	Well access to job interviews. I mean if you need certain, you know, adjustments made for you to attend the job interview you're entitled to that as well. 	
MAT	But I mean I think Access to Work are making it a lot easier because potential employers will be looking at let’s say somebody with a motor wheelchair who’s got Cerebral Palsy all right? 	
KIRUNA	Okay. 	
MAT	Oh my God are they going to need all sorts of equipment and paraphernalia and I need to go and change the building. And they probably think all these unemployable aspects of... but if Access to Work can come along and just go ‘kerching’ “there you go there’s the money for that.” And similarly I think the disabled employee potential employee should be brave enough to say, “Oh and by the way in case you’re worried about it costing you extra to employ me, it won’t because we’ve got Access to Work.” I’m just saying things have happened to make it easier why aren’t they being used?  	
KIRUNA	But you do need to have a job offer before Access to Work can help you? 	
MAT	Well yeah that’s true - an offer or an interview? 	
KIRUNA	Offer. 	
MAT	How would you, like how do you think interviewees can set their employers at ease on this aspect? I mean how would you... well maybe not how would you do it Kiruna because you’d probably sing a song. 	
KIRUNA	Well no, but I’ve had to, I’ve had to do it because I mean there have been times in my life where I’ve needed a day job and I’ve been... 	
MAT	Oh my God. 	
KIRUNA	... no I have been discriminated against in the workplace in terms of an interview. Like the first job I went for when I was 18 which actually it worked out well it was how I ended up getting the job of being an extra on Moulin Rouge, but the first job I applied for when I was out of high school going into university I wanted some sort of secretarial part-time job to help me pay for it. And a girl that I went to high school with saw my resume on her boss’s desk and it was actually a really big law firm in Australia, and she put in a good word for me with the boss and casually mentioned my height. Apparently in front of her very eyes the boss took my CV off chucked it in the bin and went, “Oh well we’d never be able to lower the fax machines for her” never offered me a job interview. And that was the first time I’d sort of had conclusive evidence that... 	
MAT	Want to name and shame? 	
KIRUNA	... discrimination out there exists. 	
MAT	And what firm was that? 	
KIRUNA	A really big one in Australia. 	
MAT	Okay very pro... 	
KIRUNA	Starting with MAT.	
MAT	Very professional of you. 	
KIRUNA	If you’ve got access issues, to start with you know you’re actually going to need to be the one on the phone that says, “Where are you going to be holding the interviews, these are my needs.” It’s tricky though. 	
MAT	You have to take responsibility that’s the point. 	
KIRUNA	It’s tricky though because people don’t necessarily want to mention it over the phone because it’s easier to knock somebody back over the phone... 	
MAT	It is. 	
kIRUNA	... rather than face to face once you’ve met them and dealt with what you're dealing with. 	
MAT	Brr brr, brr brr - hello.	
KIRUNA	Hi, I just thought I’d like to apply for a position in your firm. 	
MAT	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	And you know you've accepted me for a job interview and I was just wondering... 	
MAT	And your name sorry I’m looking through my files. 	
KIRUNA	Sorry, I’m a bit nervous, I’m applying for a job. I am Kiruna, Kiruna Stamell. 	
MAT	Oh yes Ms Stamell, that’s right I’ve got your details in front of me. You seem to have all the educational and intelligence qualifications. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah and well you’ve accepted me for the interview and I was... 	
MAT	Hm, hm, hm, 	
KIRUNA	... just wondering is there a lift and what sort of disability access... 	
MAT	A lift why would we need a lift? 	
KIRUNA	Well you see I'm a little bit on the short side and I just, you know, stairs and thing... 	
MAT	What do you mean short? What like Prince or... 	
KIRUNA	Well I have... 	
MAT	... Kylie Minogue what?	
KIRUNA	I’ve got dwarfism so I’m only... 	
MAT	((disconnection sound))	
KIRUNA	... three... thanks, thanks. 	
MAT	Is that how it goes? 	
KIRUNA	That’s how it sometimes goes. 	
MAT	Oh God that’s awful. 	
KIRUNA	No, no it’s more... 	
MAT	Let’s try again - and why would you need the lift? 	
kIRUNA	Because I’m a wheelchair user and I... 	
MAT	Well that’s fine... 	
KIRUNA	... can’t get up the stairs. 	
MAT	... we’ve got ramps. We observe the Disability Discrimination Act and we’ve had a couple of disabled people working for us...  	
KIRUNA	Oh brilliant so... 	
MAT	... very successfully before. 	
KIRUNA 	So I just thought I’d let you know because I need to be able to obviously get to the interview so that you can meet me. 	
MAT	Well of course we have a perfectly accessible business premises.	
KIRUNA	Brilliant. 	
MAT	Hm. Hm. 	
KIRUNA	Well then I’ll see you on Tuesday. 	
MAT	That’s right. You know the address, Stringfellows. ((0:38:39?)) got you aware didn’t I hey? Stringfellows, listeners, is a strip bar in London. No I’m only kidding. Seriously though bullet points ending to this little discussion Disability Discrimination Act is in place, everyone should be aware of it it’s your right it’s not your problem. 	
KIRUNA	And nobody’s doing you any favours so, you know, stick it to them and ask them serious questions. 	
MAT	You don’t have to be aggressive about it like Kiruna would be, you can be quite nice about it. 	
KIRUNA	You can be seductive about it like Mat might be. 	
MAT	I happen to have some details about the Access to Work would that help?	
KIRUNA	That’s great it sells it - sex sells. 
[Jingle: 
Now it’s time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable]
It’s time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable the quiz that keeps growing and growing. 	
MAT	On the line this month we have Alan Titchmarsh from the Department of Work and Pensions. 	
MAT + Kiruna	Hello Alan!	
ALAN	Hello. 	
MAT	Now sorry, is your name really Alan Titchmarsh? 	
ALAN	No that was just a nickname.	
MAT	You, you gardening faker. Kiruna, Alan Titchmarsh is a famous TV gardener, just so you know. 	
KIRUNA	Oh okay. 	
MAT	Yeah. Now, so tell us a little bit about yourself Alan without, obviously, imparting anything to do with your impairment. So what’s it like working in the OWP?	
ALAN	Well it’s actually quite an interesting job because we’re help people sometimes when they need some help. 	
MAT	Cool. I'm sensing that you’re not from England. Where in fact are you from? 	
ALAN	I’m actually from Scotland just outside Glasgow. 	
MAT	And why did you move? 	
ALAN	It’s my wife that forced me on that one I’m afraid. 	
MAT	Typically! Oh well. Now much do you get a week for working for the Department... oh sorry I’m not allowed to ask that, I’m only joking mate. So listen, are you a listener, a regular listener to the podcast?	
ALAN	I am indeed yes. 	
MAT	Ah right so you know what treatment you’ve got in store then do you?  	
ALAN	Yeah I’m dreading that. 	
MAT	Well you signed up for it my friend. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah you phoned us. 	
MAT	Yeah. I think here we jolly well go. I’m going to read the rules. Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game... 	
KIRUNA	Faster!	
MAT	... Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Podcast... 	
KIRUNA	Faster!	
MAT	... have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only yes or no. It is, apparently, classic and therapeutic.	
KIRUNA	To take part in the intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Alan, are you disabled?	
ALAN	Yes I am. 	
MAT	Let’s go. Okay. Woo! So Alan have you got the use of your legs?	
ALAN	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	Could I see your disability if I looked at you? 	
ALAN	No. 	
MAT	Okay. Do you have an invisible disability? 	
ALAN	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	Is it in your head? 	
ALAN	Yes. 	
MAT	Do you have a kind of infinity with our very good Seaneen Malloy? 	
ALAN	No. 	
KIRUNA	Does it affect your legs? 	
ALAN	No. 	
KIRUNA	Your arms?	
ALAN	No. 	
MAT	Face?	
ALAN	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	Do you have control of your tongue? 	
ALAN	Yes. 	
MAT	Eyes?	
ALAN	Yes. 	
MAT	Ears?	
ALAN	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	You’re steeling my questions! 	
MAT	Oh sorry darling. 	
KIRUNA	Would you need to buy a urine bottle from the new department in Asda?	
ALAN	No not today. 	
MAT	Would you need buy dark glasses if it was really sunny? 	
ALAN	No. 	
KIRUNA	Ooh is it a type of epilepsy? 	
ALAN	No. 	
KIRUNA	Mental health issue? 	
ALAN	No. 	
MAT	Nostril problems?	
ALAN	No. 	
KIRUNA	Motor Neurone? 	
MAT	Do you have a hairy face like the Mexican boy? 	
ALAN	No. 	
KIRUNA	Do you have all your teeth? 	
ALAN	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	Are you actually speaking for yourself or do you have an interpreter that’s talking to us? 	
ALAN	No I’m speaking for myself. 	
MAT	Ooh. Now do you have both sets of thumbs? 	
ALAN	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	Okay. Something in your head. 	
MAT	Hold on... 	
KIRUNA	Is something loose in your head? 	
MAT	Literally? 	
ALAN	Maybe. 	
MAT	Metaphorically? A loose screw?	
KIRUNA	Oh, oh, okay do both spheres of your brain communicate to each other? 	
ALAN	Yes. 	
MAT	Oh God this is impossible. 	
KIRUNA	Frontal lobe? 	
MAT	Aaaggghhh! We lost again, Kiruna. Look Alan it’s time for you to tell us what’s wrong with you, we lost you won, please put us out of our misery, what’s up with you? 	
ALAN	I have amongst other things Temporo Mandibular Joint Dysfunction.	
KIRUNA	What’s that? ((Buzzer sounding)) 	
	Temporo Mandibular Joint Dysfunction. 	
KIRUNA	No wait. 	
	Temporo Mandibular Joint Dysfunction.	
MAT	Are we in a science feature film? 	
	Temporo Mandibular Joint Dysfunction.	
KIRUNA	It feels like QI all of a sudden... 	
	Temporo Mandibular Joint Dysfunction.	
KIRUNA	... and I’m with Alan Davies. 	
MAT	I think I’m going to get raped by machines. 	
	Temporo Mandibular Joint Dysfunction.	
KIRUNA	Make it stop! 	
	Temporo Mandibular Joint Dysfunction.	
KIRUNA	What does that actually?	
ALAN	I clench my teeth an awful lot. 	
KIRUNA	((Sharp intake of breath)) I was going to ask you about teeth. 	
MAT	You wouldn’t have guessed though would you?	
KIRUNA	But I wouldn’t have guessed.	
MAT	... tooth clenching. 	
ALAN	I clench my teeth a lot which has caused my joint to stick my jaw joint which means that sometimes my mouth sticks open or sticks closed. 	
MAT	Wow! And what else you said amongst other things? 	
ALAN	Well that’s right I actually have Complex Regional Pain Syndrome and because of that I was clenching my teeth... 	
KIRUNA	Oh I see. 	
ALAN	... which has caused the... 	
MAT	Do you grind them is it a grinder or just a clencher? 	
ALAN	Just a clencher. 	
KIRUNA	A bit like a pit bull? 	
ALAN	Yes. 	
KIRUNA	You know there’s a shark in Australia called the Wobbegong shark it does that as well, and the only way you can get it off once it bites you is to kill it. 	
MAT	I don’t think Alan goes around biting people Kiruna. Thank you very much. 	
ALAN	Not often. 	
KIRUNA	But if he did I’d know to knock him over the head. 	
MAT	Right, this is all getting a bit weird. Sorry. 	
KIRUNA	Until he let go. 	
MAT	Blimey. So when people hear what’s up with you what annoying questions do they ask. Sorry that was yours Kiruna. 	
ALAN	They think I’ve got lockjaw which is not quite the same thing. 	
MAT	No not at all. 	
KIRUNA	What do you do when it happens? 	
ALAN	Hit myself in the face. 	
MAT	What? 	
KIRUNA	Does that loosen it up? 	
ALAN	It sometimes does. 	
KIRUNA	And if that doesn’t work?	
MAT	What does your wife do? 	
ALAN	Pardon? 	
KIRUNA	If that doesn’t work? 	
ALAN	I’m stuck there catching flies. 	
MAT	What does your wife do? Does she put a little gauze in front of your mouth? 	
ALAN	She normally puts chocolates in front of me to annoy me. 	
MAT	Ooh! 	
KIRUNA	Does she ever decorate you like a, I don’t know, like arranged flowers like a vase? 	
ALAN	Only when I’m drunk I think. 	
MAT	I think we’d better wrap it up now because it’s all getting a little bit weird. 	
KIRUNA	I know I’m getting a bit strange today. 	
MAT	But Alan good news or bad news - well there’s no bad news you beat us. The good news is that you win an Ouch mug. 	
ALAN	Thank you very much. 	
MAT	Old style, yeah retro in the space yes? 	
ALAN	That would be lovely, thank you. 	
MAT	Oh fantastic. Alan, once again you have joined the ranks of the supreme disableds who have beaten us hands, flippers and toes down. Well done and congratulations. 	
ALAN	Thank you. 	
KIRUNA	Well the disabilities are getting more and more obscure. 	
MAT	I love that one. 	
KIRUNA	I like that one too. 	
MAT	You can keep your blindness and your dwarfism and your thalidiness. 	
KIRUNA	I want lockjaw. 	
MAT	I think the listeners would be quite appreciative of that as well Kiruna from time to time. No I had to say that I don’t think that. 	
KIRUNA	I know it’s not lockjaw but I was just making a joke. 	
MAT	Hm a little inappropriate and distasteful. Has he gone? 	
ALAN	No I’m... 	
MAT	Oh all right. Alan, lots of respect can we go now please. Thanks Alan, bye bye. 
[Jingle: Confined to a webcast the Ouch podcast]
Right, that brings us nicely towards the closing moments of this the Ouch Talk Show for May 2009. Liz is back next month but thanks to my lovely co-host Kiruna Stamell, our studio guest Seaneen Malloy, the ever smiley Peter White for the news; and the production team Emma Tracey, Simon McPhilips, Damon Rose and Chris the studio engineer. 	
KIRUNA	Yea! Now we’re playing out this month with a track from disabled Devon based singer/songwriter Chlay. 	
MAT	Chlay has taken her ME and asthma off to study performance at the Academy of Music in Exeter and plays lots of gigs in the area. Read more about where to catch Chlay live and listen to her music on MySpace page myspace.com/chlay’s music. That’s C-H-L-A-Y’s music. Here’s a track from here called Silently.
Goodbye!	
KIRUNA	Bye! 
[Playing music]