Ouch Podcast #33 – November 2008
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

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The Ouch Podcast

Liz	Hello I’m Liz Carr.	
mat	And I’m Mat Fraser, how’re doing? 	
liz	Welcome to another podcast. 	
mAT	Yes you're very, very welcome. 	
liz	Oh yes. 	
mAT	Oh blimey! 	
LIZ	It’s really we’ve got a lot, a lot this month very exciting. 	
mAT	But shall we just say… 	
LIZ	What?	
MAT	Wasn’t that a hell of a presidential election?	
LIZ	Wow wasn’t it I can’t believe that… 	
mAT	I know… 	
LIZ	… that he got in.	
mAT	Isn’t that incredible.	
liZ	Oh wow!	
mat	Who would’ve thought it?	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
mat	Anyway maybe we should do the menu. 	
LIZ	Shall we? 	
mat	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Go on. 	
mat	On this month’s Ouch
[Playing clip: Excuse me, hey we forgot our IDs and we’re wondering if you could do us a favour and buy us a 6 pack?
You know what you're asking is illegal.
No it’s not]
RJ Mitte, I think that’s how it’s pronounced, from gritty US drama series Breaking Bad currently showing on FX. He plays 16 year old Walter. Like his character he’s got cerebral palsy and our researcher, Gideon, can’t get enough of it. He’ll be on the line to us from ((Liz and Mat singing)) Alberkerky.	
LIZ	Away from the glamour we’re going to be talking about money and wait for it - assisted suicide. [Whistling noise] We will be talking about other things.	
MAT	Hm on the flip side of suicide we have the celebration of life that is vegetable, vegetable or vegetable our quiz. 	
LIZ	Big Brother’s Mikey will be joining us shortly with a look at some of the disability headlines this month. And tell us about the music Mat. 	
MAT	Well we’ll be playing out with a track from disabled Aussie band, MSG, who are part of the wonderfully named Tra La La Blip collective. 
[Playing music]
Wow that sounds really good, that was good. Kind of like Cher on vocals. But also I should say, and also ladies and gentlemen, we have got the Black Kripple and Krew in California to hear about a new disability music radio show starting this month. 	
LIZ	We’re on the web on our shiny new website wow bbc.co.uk/ouch - spread the word, you can see photos and videos of this month’s show, not to mention thousands of articles, cartoons, message boards and blah like that. 	
MAT	Yeah it really is a spankingly new… 	
LIZ	It is. 	
MAT	… reinvented website of excellence. 	
LIZ	It is indeed so do go by and have a look. Well… 	
MAT	What? Oh look at you…	
LIZ	I know I’ve got something for you. 	
MAT	Come on then. 	
LIZ	Are you scared? 	
MAT	I’m always scared when you look at me like that Liz. 	
LIZ	Okay hold on, I’m going to rustle in my bag.	
MAT	A bit of audio description she’s rust-- oh, oh I know what you’ve got.	
LIZ	Oh do you? 	
MAT	Well you’ve got me a present it looks like a bag of crisps.	
LIZ	It is - no it’s not. 	
MAT	But I know what it is because I’ve seen another colour it’s a bag of crips, that’s right. No hold on, thank you. Okay, listeners it’s literally it’s a bag of what looks like crisps or chips as you might say in New Zealand or America what do they call them there? 	
LIZ	Yeah potato chips. 	
MAT	Potato chips. And it says ‘Crips’ C R I P S sea salt and cracked black pepper lovingly baked. Erm… [opening bag]	
LIZ	I like what, erm… oh they are a bit average but I liked what Vaughan said on the message board, he said, “Obviously not made by Walkers” do you think? 	
MAT	[Munching] Oh sorry… 	
LIZ	He’s just got it. The production team thinks it’s funny you...	
MAT	It is funny but I was momentarily transported to a magnificent place of taste sensation with the new crips. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
MAT	Now I think… 	
LIZ	And that took you away from Vaughan the producer’s clever comments.	
MAT	No what I’m… subtlety, Liz, in case you hadn’t guessed trying to do, is that we the Ouch co-presenters of the podcast should become the people who advertise crips.  	
LIZ	I know can you imagine. Actually there are other potato and wheat… 	
MAT	Products. 	
LIZ	… products available however none of them are called crips. But I had a bag of spastics and they were delicious. 	
MAT	Kerching! I knew they’d be a punch line somewhere, I was waiting a long time but we got there eventually.  	
LIZ	Okay, so what have you been up to? 	
MAT	Well last night I did one of my favourite things to do which is I entertained at a learning disabled club, The Bubble Club, who put together… it’s a club put together by the Map Squad down the East End of London, a learny club, as we call them in the business and it was Halloween night. Now have you been to a disability/learning disabled event on Halloween Liz?	
LIZ	No unfortunately I haven’t. 	
MAT	Picture the scene - lots of people whose natural way of ambulating would be a little shuffly, large lumbering people, all dressed as zombies and what have you, you know, horror films and… 	
LIZ	Do you see what I’m doing?	
MAT	… the learning disabled community start to blur. You're doing the dance from Thriller because that was the highlight. No it was the highlight. 	
LIZ	Can I see you do it? Okay, so now we’re… 	
MAT	Come on let’s get Gideon in we’ll put in on a little mpeg Liz and Mat doing the scene, the dance from the Zombie Dance from Thriller. 	
LIZ	We’re raising our arms zombie like either… 	
MAT	But what happened was… 	
LIZ	Sorry. 	
MAT	… I got to Thriller because I did Monster, you like that one don’t you? 	
LIZ	I do. 	
MAT	I did Fire by Arthur Brown, a little bit scary that one. And several other, you know… 	
LIZ	Well we are fire hazards. 	
MAT	… Devil in Disguise, Witchcraft all the classics to do with Halloween. And then we did Thriller. Now a) Michael Jackson’s voice is bloody high, I’m not altogether sure that mine was a success, but I had five learning disabled people, one guy going [makes monster noise] for 30 minutes without stopping. Edward the Down Syndrome sex bomb dancer, who kept putting his hand down his front like “I’m so hot” and that was very funny. And then I had Gemma the witch and Lily the witch who we renamed Lilith for obvious reasons - it being Halloween. They were both dressed as full witches from pointy hat, skirt, broom the whole bloody lot, and we’re doing the stuff from Thriller. It was great and the thing it was wonderful until an angry carer stepped forward, like she had the right… 	
LIZ	Oh of course. 	
MAT	… and told Edward to put his shirt back on because his dancing was too sexy for her. 	
LIZ	I mean it’s like the ‘Stay up Late’ campaign that we’ve talked about before on the show that Heavy Load… 	
MAT	It’s like the opposite to that. 	
LIZ	… are involved in and whatever, it’s the opposite isn’t it. But even if we do stay out late, if we do have PAs really they’re not really are they, they’re carers and they usually work for an organisation and they take over. And they…  	
MAT	Totally take over. 	
LIZ	… they’ve got the right to tell… 	
MAT	And it’s that whole thing of they arrive and then they, you know, quite rightly I suppose, they see their colleagues who also work in that service industry and they go off and have a chat with them. Well sorry, hello there was one point… 	
LIZ	You’re working. 	
MAT	… where I went out to the woman and said, “Do you think it might be a good idea if you let these two guys actually go into the club before you start talking to all your mates?” I just think it’s… uh, you know, they’re not quite getting it some of those people that work with the learning and disabled people. 	
LIZ	And does it seem to be especially with people learning difficulties that happens a lot doesn’t it? 	
MAT	Yeah. Thankfully Edward completely ignored her and carried on… 	
LIZ	Good. 	
MAT	… dancing like a slut for the rest of the evening. 	
LIZ	I haven’t been to that event, obviously, but I did go to a Halloween party this weekend. 	
MAT	Oh yeah!	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	What was it like? 	
LIZ	The theme… it was fancy dress the theme was ‘Creatures of the Night’ yeah. 	
MAT	And so who… did you go with Jo? 	
LIZ	There were about 18 witches there and then there was us, and we were a bit creative and we were thinking what can it be creatures of the night. 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	We were going to go as Sign Zone interpreters right? 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	Yeah I thought that was… 	
MAT	Deep. 	
LIZ	Well you know because in the middle of the night that’s the only time they have programmes on… 	
MAT	Absolutely and that’s very clever.	
LIZ	… that are interpreted right, so we thought about that. 	
MAT	Too clever.	
LIZ	But then Jo said, yeah exactly, what about the test card. Now if you’re old enough and you’re from the UK you’ll know that when the programmes used to go off and be off on the BBC they used to be this test card. 	
MAT	It was a scary image. 	
LIZ	Scary. 	
MAT	I always found it quite scary. 	
LIZ	It’s a young girl in a head band, long hair and whatever, a chalk board they’re playing tic, tac, toe - noughts and crosses and then there’s a clown.  	
MAT	All clowns evil people. 	
LIZ	So I went as the clown. 	
MAT	You went as the clown? 	
LIZ	I went as the clown. 	
MAT	So Jo was the girl? 	
LIZ	She was the girl in a dress. She’s never really worn a dress. 	
MAT	Woo! 	
LIZ	And… 	
MAT	Any chance of the website putting the photo up? 	
LIZ	They are fantastic. 	
MAT	Have you got a photo? 	
LIZ	They are fantastic. 	
MAT	I want to see that. 	
LIZ	Yes, yes. But it’s been quite a good month because I’ve been doing the fancy dress, I’ve still been doing a lot of cookery, I’ve also got a new pair of slippers - oh winter’s coming - this is rock star. But you know you're living quite a weird life when one of the things you have to ask your PA is to go and buy a clown’s nose and some chicken livers. So… 	
MAT	Have you turned into a Satanist as well as a lesbian? 	
LIZ	No I’m cooking, I’m doing loads, I’m loving cookery. 	
MAT	Okay. 	
LIZ	No. 	
MAT	Okay fine. 	
LIZ	That’s enough isn’t it? 	
MAT	No it’s fine I’m all into cookery. Obviously chicken livers turns my stomach a little being a vegetarian, but fine I’m sure they were delicious and extremely good for your colon Liz. 	
LIZ	No great loving it. 	
MAT	Ah that’s good. It’s nice that you can get the little pleasures in life isn’t it? 	
LIZ	It is. 	
MAT	Because you know, anyway. Ooh dear. 	
LIZ	No, not for you. You got any new slippers? 	
MAT	New slippers no. I’ve got a new leather kilt. Well I was in Expectations, my favourite gay fetish shop, having my little leather pouch, you know my little leather pouch that I have for my little hands… 	
LIZ	I know, I know. 	
MAT	… and the money. Well I get a new one every year and I was in there and looking around thinking oh that looks nice and found myself, for some reason thinking, I would look good in a leather mini kilt and I bought one. It’s funny what you do when you’re in a shop isn’t it sometimes?	
LIZ	It is. And that does remind me of scary fancy dress fireworks are you doing anything, will you be bobbing for apples? Anything like that…	
MAT	Bobbing for apples. 	
LIZ	… this time of year? 	
MAT	I won’t be. I’d quite like to bob for apples…	
LIZ	Do you know what… 	
MAT	And how would you do it Liz?	
LIZ	So bobbing for apples - bowl of water, apples in it, you can’t use your hands, not that that really affects either of us, and you kind of drown yourself don’t you.  	
MAT	Trying to fish things out with your mouth. 	
LIZ	I can’t reach…	
MAT	It sounds quite familiar to a lot of disabled people. 	
LIZ	I’ve got to get my PA to hold the bowl up to my face to make is accessible because I don’t bend. So that’s not much fun. 	
MAT	I’ve had people holding a bowl up to my face before but it was a different situation. 	
LIZ	Oh that’s stop it now. And don’t you find because we’ve got fireworks, we’ve got Guy Fawkes and… 	
MAT	I hate them. 	
LIZ	Do you. 	
MAT	I’ve turned into an old man.	
LIZ	Yeah you’ve been that way a long time. 	
MAT	Yeah I know. All I think about is my poor cats who are terrified. I always stay in. Now I have to stay in from October 31 through Divali to November 5 Guy Fawkes’ night. It’s a constant firework fest for two weeks. 	
LIZ	If you did have you ever used sparklers don’t you find that whole… you know if you haven’t got… 	
MAT	Have you seen the scars on my head Liz? It’s a nightmare waiting to happen - thalidomides with fireworks. Half the children I ever meet when I see fireworks “Did something happen to you with fireworks?” No that was a bad joke. 	
LIZ	Halloween fancy dress why do we even bother wearing costumes we should just go as ourselves. 	
MAT	It’s like that scene in Mask isn’t it where they… no it’s not much like that. Are there disabalist fireworks? 	
LIZ	Okay why? 	
MAT	It’s horrible. 	
LIZ	No, no. Well Catherine Wheel that’s accessible. 	
MAT	Yeah I suppose it is. The Jumping Jack was the one I always used to like. 	
LIZ	Oh I’ve never heard of that. 	
MAT	Oh banned when Health and Safety came in. Bangers do you remember the tough kids who’d hold the banger at arm’s length? 	
LIZ	Okay, most of our listeners aren’t now this old; we’re not going back to the ‘50s? 	
MAT	Do you remember Lamb Chop the black and white children’s television series? Actually I did know a thalidomide person with short arms that tried doing that holding the banger at arm’s length thing. 
[Jingle: The Ouch podcast]
Speaking of bizarrely dressed disabled people.	
LIZ	Ah yes. 	
MAT	Who’s that we spy over the other side of the table? 	
LIZ	It’s news junkie and former Big Brother contestant, it’s Michael Hughes, hello Mikey. 	
MIKEY	Twitch, twitch hi Mat, hi Liz. Thanks for having me in the studio today. You know I’ve actually got my hand on a cup of water… 	
LIZ	No!	
MIKEY	… because Mat kindly reminded me that I was going tip it over, then I put it on the floor but I seem to offend you guys because I’ve got long arms to stretch down to the floor to pick it up and, Liz, you ordered - ordered me to put it back on the table. 	
MAT	Long arms as we can see Mikey yeah. 	
LIZ	So would you like to reach for a crip? 	
MIKEY	I will reach… 	
LIZ	Would you like to try a crip?	
MIKEY	A crack… 	
MAT	Follow the noise. 	
MIKEY	My hands are following the noise. 	
LIZ	Can you follow that, do you know where it is? Give it to me. 	
LIZ	Give them to me... 	
MIKEY	Mat is there any crips left for me?	
LIZ	I’ve got them now. Do you know where they are now? 	
MIKEY	Oh I think they’re over… 	
LIZ	Awh. 	
MAT	Oh there we go he’s having a crip ladies and gentlemen. 	
MIKEY	Definitely like a little rabbit sniffing a carrot. 	
LIZ	So is that the first crip that you’ve eaten Mikey? 	
MIKEY	It is, it is. Where did you get these from are they specially imported? 	
LIZ	No they’re from the UK. They are, they’re English, English crips yes they are, well I don’t know if they’re UK crips they may be. 	
MIKEY	Well we all know that English disabled people are the best, but coming up shortly I’ll tell you about a guy in Canada who’s disabled he’s been in a bit of trouble. 	
LIZ	Hold your horses will you or should I say hold your bunny ears - why are you dressed like this? You’ve got white bunny ears on Mikey.	
MIKEY	I had two kind of problems this year for Halloween, obviously in the Big Brother house within a few days I dressed up as a bunny girl for Mario’s stag do. But I was also thinking about dressing up as a zombie, because there’s a big zombie revival and, of course, I took part in the Thriller task in the Big Brother house and dressed up as a zombie and I can’t wait later on, Mat and Liz, to do the zombie dance with you. 	
LIZ	Will you teach us will you? 	
MIKEY	I’ll teach you. 	
MAT	Ah brilliant. 	
LIZ	I’m so excited. 	
mI	You know it’s been a few months back now and I did… 	
MAT	I’m just hearing from the producer we’re going to film it and put it on the website. 	
MIKEY	Oh well you know I forgot some of the moves I don’t want to embarrass myself. 	
LIZ	We won’t be able to do most of the moves. 	
MAT	I wouldn’t think you’ll be the most embarrassed here I wouldn’t worry about that. 	
MIKEY	Well you know I think blind people are ideal for zombies because, to be honest, I live in a zombie eyes state all day long. 	
LIZ	As do a lot of people - do you like this link - this is a clever link okay? Because we’ve been looking at the news stories that you're going to talk to us about. Apparently, Mikey, if you can’t find a public loo it’s the fault of disabled people! What, what, what… 	
MIKEY	It’s always the fault of disabled people. Apparently it’s a Common’s Committee and they’ve investigated this. Apparently local councils are shutting down loos and they’re claiming they’re shutting down the loos because they can’t make disabled loos accessible - it’s costing too much money. So they say if they’ve got a loo and it’s not accessible then under the DDA they can’t have the loo. And I love it when the British Toilet Association get involved… 	
MAT	Not the BTA?	
MIKEY	… you notice they in when loos are involved. And they’re saying this is absolute nonsense - disabled people should be able to go into accessible loos. And can you believe the British Standards Institute are actually looking at a way to make loos generic and standardised for all disabled people; because I don’t know about you but every time I go into a disabled loo it’s a different layout. 	
LIZ	I guess it is. 	
MAT	Yeah it is I mean I really don’t go in there that often. I only go in when I have to pull rank. 	
MIKEY	It’s these exclusive disabled loos I don’t know why it’s a bit like “Mikey do you want to go into the men’s?” - and I go “No!” I’m going into the 	
MAT	You’re an angry man Mikey.	
MIKEY	… disabled loo. 	
LIZ	Yeah but I guess, you know the standardisation it is important. You know what until you raised it… 	
MAT	Well it is important yes. 	
LIZ	… because you need to know if you're a disabled person, whatever your impairment, that you can get on the loo or you know that everything’s where it is, I guess if you’re a blind person, you know. 	
MIKEY	Well basically because I’m blind I can only go into loos with gloves on, because now I need to steal a greasy smelly wall to find where the toilet paper is. 	
LIZ	I’ve got this vision now of you putting… 	
MAT	You think it’s grease. 	
LIZ	… nice dapper little white gloves on, you know. 	
MIKEY	I have got white gloves in my bag to go with my bunny girl outfit. 	
LIZ	I thought maybe you would. So basically because of us that’s why most lifts smell of wee because that’s where non disabled people have to go now. 	
MIKEY	Well apparently somebody was saying that disabled people are at risk of peeing in the street because there’s no accessible loos. Now I don’t know if you remember in the Big Brother house there was a lot of controversy with me and my little plastic yellow cup. 	
LIZ	Oh yes. 	
MAT	There was anyway moving on from plastic yellow cups and the difficulty of peeing, it’s often difficult to pee when you’ve got an infectious disease isn’t it? 	
LIZ	Story number two oh my God. 	
MIKEY	It’s a story in Canada and it’s a guy called Randolph Gibbins and it’s got to Supreme Court stage in Canada. He’s trying to get £200,000 back from his insurance company because he actually had unprotected sex, had a little accident, contracted herpes and ended up quadriplegic. He’s no legs he’s no use of his legs. The herpes actually destroyed his spine and now he can’t walk. And he’s claiming that this was an accident. But his insurance company are saying it wasn’t an accident, he should have known the risks - and wait until you hear this - the Supreme Court last year decided that he couldn’t possibly envisage that having unprotected sex would make him have no use of his legs, and they’re saying if you have unprotected sex it’s hardly like going on a motorway in busy traffic, playing Russian Roulette or balancing on the edge of a ledge and falling off. Now I don’t know how that compares to having unprotected sex but basically what they’re saying is this guy wasn’t silly because he wasn’t in the middle of a motorway in busy traffic. 	
LIZ	With his bits out about to have sex. 	
MAT	I last tried to have sex in that environment a very long time ago and it was disastrous it’s true. 	
LIZ	Mikey I love the story but could you say quadriplegic again for us. 	
MAT	Come on. 	
MIKEY	I’ve been practicing this all week. Quadriplegic. 	
MAT	Hoorah well done. 	
LIZ	Moving on to the next story. 	
MAT	Oh please. 	
LIZ	Train assistance woeful as ever. 	
MIKEY	Well it’s a group called Passenger Focus and it was disabled mystery shoppers and they tried out the Assistance Transport Service. You know phone in 24 hours in advance. 	
LIZ	That sounds very Scooby Doo. What’s a mystery shopper? 	
MIKEY	I don’t know. I mean a mystery shopper… 	
LIZ	Do they arrive in a van? 	
MIKEY	Probably a disabled person turning up in their wheelchair. 	
LIZ	Guide dog Scooby Doo. 	
MIKEY	Guide dog in tow as well. In fact have you ever seen a disabled person with a wheelchair and a guide dog? 	
MAT	No I don’t believe I ever have. 	
LIZ	Actually no. Assistant’s dogs oh God yes. 	
MIKEY	So basically… 	
MIKEY	… you turn up and you turn the assistance and you know I do not do this - you phone up and phone assistance and they come with a wheelchair and a little van. And I don’t do wheelchairs in vans. I’ve nothing against people in wheelchairs but I don’t like that little van, I just like an arm to guide me to the train service. But believe it or not a third of all disabled people that have booked Travel Assistance are left stranded at the platforms. And under a half are really not satisfied that this system is adequate. So wait until you hear this - the Association of Passenger Transport Operators are basically saying the answer is monitoring - more monitoring, training for staff and more communication. I find if you are totally blind, you see I get dropped off at a station in a taxi, then you’re basically left to find the assistance. I think if it was all electronic and you could phone somebody and they knew you were there, and you knew where you were, I think it is all communication. I don’t know if you have any bad experiences Liz and Mat travelling booking assistance? 	
MAT	Of course Liz is bound to have had loads. But I have to disagree with you here Mikey, I actually think what the answer is to sue the damn train company. Sue them for breaching the Disability Discrimination Act… 	
MIKEY	Well they do say… 	
MAT	… and let me finish - and once enough people have brought, whether they’re unsuccessful or not, cases to court it will highlight this situation and it’ll just buck their ideas up. 	
MIKEY	But it’s all the hassle. I mean I’ve wrote in complaining before and you never hear about it and then you need to take out your own case in the Civil Court… 	
LIZ	It is. 	
MAT	True. 	
LIZ	And all you want to do is get off the train you know what I mean? 	
MAT	Yeah you need to take three years out of your life to do it. 	
LIZ	You do. 	
LIZ	But it is scary if you're getting off at a place and that’s not where the train’s stopping, so you’ve got minutes and they’re not there it’s terrifying.	
MIKEY	Well I had… 	
LIZ	Terrifying I think. 	
MIKEY	… to book assistance to get me down to London and I had ten minutes to get between Birmingham and another station, there’s no way I was going to make that. I mean the guy would still… I’d still be waiting at the platform and I would miss my connection.	
MAT	It’s despicable - British train service BUCK YOUR IDEAS UP!	
miKEY	Buck, buck my little rabbit ears... 	
LIZ	Buck, buck the rabbit says buck it up. Now okay, this is a bit bizarre the next news story, Mikey, the blind and mobility impaired. 	
MAT	Oh they want everything now. 	
LIZ	Hm?	
MIKEY	Well they do want everything. I want everything it’s the difference between £17 a week and £47 a week. Would you not like an extra £20… Mat you get higher rate mobility I’m sure so do you Liz. 	
MAT	I don’t get any mobility. 	
LIZ	Okay but explain what this is about so this is about disability living allowance yeah? 	
MIKEY	It’s about disability living allowance. It’s about blind people currently getting lower rate mobility I can’t even speak, I sound like Jonathan Ross… 	
LIZ	Quadriplegia say quadriplegia. 	
MAT	I don’t remember that person, who’s he? 	
mikey	Jonathan Ross	
MAT	No still can’t remember. 	
LIZ	No. 	
MAT	Was he in no can’t remember. Listen mate you’ve got legs you can walk what’s the problem? 	
MIKEY	The problem is that yeah I can walk and that’s what the Government’s saying I can walk, but people - I’m not trying to say that people in wheelchairs, I’m not against them, but they can get higher rate mobility and then they can drive in their cars… 	
MAT	I know. 	
MIKEY	… whereas blind people are stuck in their own homes and they can’t go out the door because they can’t get this extra cash for taxis. It’s an extra £29 a week that’s all we’re asking for. 	
MAT	Can you not feel your way down the walls like Roger Daltrey did in Tommy?	
MIKEY	You can and you can bang into lampposts and you can get knocked down for an extra £29 a week. I’ve met MPs apparently it’s all got stuck up in Treasury the Big Brother is bailing out the banks millions of pounds… 	
LIZ	Mikey, obviously, you feel passionate about this you went to a lobby at Parliament yeah? 	
MIKEY	I did go to a lobby in Parliament with 1,500 other blind and disabled people. I don’t think it’ll be this side of Christmas, I don’t even think it’ll be next year… 	
MAT	Haven’t they got the banks to bail out first though? 	
MIKEY	They’ve got the banks to bail out but apparently it’s a guarantee according to John McFall MP Head of the Treasury Committee it’ll not…	
MAT	Not for long. 	
MIKEY	… actually cost the taxpayer anything. We’re only asking for £30m - wait until you hear this - somebody said, “If the bankers are out rattling their cans for money would they get any money. But disabled people do, blind people do, so who has got the public sympathy?”	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	That’s the place to end whoa. 	
MAT	Well Michael Hughes… 	
LIZ	Well good luck with your campaign. 	
MAT	… you’re always one to sit on the fence aren’t you? 	
MIKEY	I am awh that is something… 	
MAT	I’m joking.	
MIKEY	… I’ve not been accused of sitting on the fence here in the Big Brother house. I’ve got a voice and I’ve got the look. I was speaking to MPs, I’ve got a taste for it, I was at Westminster I am going to go into politics all I need to do is pick a party, pick a seat and Bob’s your uncle. 	
LIZ	Well if we want more we can hear more on Insight Radio that’s where you’re normally broadcasting Mikey yeah? 	
MIKEY	It’s ‘Straight Talking with Mikey Hughes’ it’s on a Friday night 6:00pm to 7:00pm, Insightradio.co.uk. And if you miss that I’ll be putting selected extracts of my own website -  keep it simple - it’s mikeyhughes.com	
LIZ	Mikey, thanks very much. 	
MAT	Thank you very much. 	
LIZ	Hop off now, do you get it? 	
MAT	Ah very good. 	
MIKEY	Have you got any carrots because I’m fed up with those crips? 
[Jingle: This is the Ouch podcast from the BBC in London.]

With us on the line is the star of TV’s Breaking Bad it’s RJ Mitte. How’re you doing RJ?	
Rj	I'm good how are you? 	
MAT	Very good thank you very much. 	
LIZ	We are well, great to have you. 	
RJ	Good. 	
MAT	Now we’ve been talking about ((Singing)) Alberkerky which is where you come from, but to most British people the reason I sang it is because it comes from an ‘80s pop song and we want to know what’s it like Alberkerky, what’s it like? 	
RJ	It’s nice - big mountains, beautiful it’s like a lot of desert if you just take the freeway about half a mile out you’ll hit the desert. 	
LIZ	Right in the middle of the desert. And that’s where you’re filing, that’s where you're filming the series? 	
RJ	Yeah we have a studio by the airport out here that’s about ten minutes out of Alberkerky and we have the sound stage there and we have all the entire house there. And plus about two hours from that we go out and that’s where we cook crystal. 	
LIZ	Well let’s explain… 	
MAT	This is weird. We’d better explain the programme now… 	
LIZ	We should yeah. 	
MAT	… because this is a bit weird.	
RH	Oh yes. 	
LIZ	Well Breaking Bad is a gritty US drama currently showing on the FX channel in the UK. RJ plays Walter White Junior a smart-alec teenager with cerebral palsy whose father’s dying of cancer. His father’s a former chemistry teacher and he deals in crystal meth in order to fund his ongoing chemo and to look after his family. Walter’s regularly seen getting into all sorts of schoolboy scrapes. So here we’ve got a clip of RJ as Walter trying on some trousers in the changing room of a clothes store. 
Playing Clip: Are you sure you don’t want to get like the different kind like a you know the skinny jeans because those are really supposed to be in now. 
Do I look like a skater?
All right. 
They’re my big boy pants. Mummy could you zip up…
After that, what happens in that clip after they tease you RJ? 	
RJ	My Dad comes and beats the crap out of that dude. I mean that part takes place in just a store where I’m trying on clothes and this dude starts making fun of me and from there just my Dad can’t handle it anymore, I’ve been getting made fun of by this jerk and my Dad comes around and just beats the dude up. 	
MAT	Wow!	
RJ	Yeah. 	
MAT	In real life I don’t know what your parental background is like, are your parents still around? 	
RJ	Yeah. 	
MAT	Okay. 	
RJ	Actually my Mum is in the sound studio right now. 	
MAT	Hey RJ Mum!	
LIZ	Hello Mum!	
MAT	I hope you're proud of your boy? But listen what would you have done if that had happened in real life if your Dad had gone up and stamped on the leg of a teaser? 	
LIZ	Would your Dad do that, would your real Dad do that? 	
RJ	I don’t know. Maybe I’m not sure. That stuff doesn’t really bother me because I just say ah they’re jealous because I’ve got a real job. 	
MAT	Obviously for the listeners… ah ha nice one. For the listeners, obviously, RJ has cerebral palsy like the character Walter that he portrays. 	
RJ	Yes. 	
LIZ	Yeah but, but which I think is fascinating RJ… 	
MAT	Oh yes. 	
LIZ	… is that you have to what we like to call crip up a bit don’t you, you have to act more disabled? 	
RJ	Yes I have a very mild case of cerebral palsy and the character has it more severe. 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	So what do you have to do? 	
MAT	You might get an Oscar. 	
RJ	For the character role I have to kind of, I overcome a lot of stuff they said I’d be in crutches or I’d still be in braces. Well two years ago I just had enough of that so I got out of that and when this role came up I had to relearn a lot of that. 	
LIZ	So you’d thrown away the crutches in real life now you’ve got them on in the show yeah? 	
RJ	Yeah. I de-progressed I… 	
LIZ	You’ve regressed, you’ve gone back. 	
RJ	I regressed. 	
MAT	Hey RJ are there any other impairments you fancy having a go at? I’m just joking. Now younger disabled people it’s clear they’re crying out for a disabled role model on dramatic television, I mean really we don’t get examples of this, so what you’re doing is quite a rare thing. I mean, Gideon you’re with us. 	
GIDEON	Hello. 	
MAT	That’s your life being portrayed - that’s your early life in a way kind of being portrayed, how do you feel about it? 	
GIDEON	It’s extraordinary - I’ve been gripped to the show, I’ve just never seen something like that. I’ve never seen just an ordinary guy with cerebral palsy, a teenager doing regular stuff, going out and trying to drink and hanging out and those experiences. That’s just amazing to see on regular TV. Quite often the disabled characters come in and just do a small part or they’re just an extra, but there this guy is a teenager and he’s one of the main characters - it’s really great to see. 	
MAT	That’s the effect you’re having on some people, RJ. Do you find that a fun responsibility or what? 	
RJ	I find it an honour that I can affect so many people by just me being in this great show, it’s a real honour be able to just go and do what I love and really show people about CP and be a role, I guess a role model to some people I guess. 	
LIZ	It’s like you know Gideon’s our web assistant researcher on Ouch and you’re a role model to him. Okay would you rather be a role model or a heart throb? 	
MAT	Huh-ha!	
RJ	Yeah that’s a hard one. Is there a chance for both? 	
MAT	How unlike a young man. 	
LIZ	A good looking role model, I think you probably fulfil that, that’s fine. 	
MAT	Yeah apparently the role on the streets is that you’re a bit hot and the ladies on the set are keen on you, so you’re obviously having that kind of effect. When you get a bit older, I mean do you think your television and film career is going to develop and you'll end up being possibly the first ever disability heart throb? 	
RJ	Maybe you never know. 	
LIZ	Because before this you’d done - what other shows have you done? You’ve done Grey’s Anatomy I read about that yeah? 	
RJ	Yeah I did a small part but really I haven’t… I did actually kind of starting acting three years ago, four years ago and I worked on Hannah Montana and some stuff like that, but this is mainly Breaking Bad is my main role pretty much. 	
LIZ	And you know what we’ve been sitting here and I’ve got no idea what does Breaking Bad mean? 	
MAT	What does it refer to - is it something to do with…	
RJ	Breaking Bad I’ve heard that question phrased in many directions and it always means the same thing, it’s when someone can’t… when a decent person can’t take it anymore they just kind of turn and go the opposite direction. 	
LIZ	So this is about your Dad, because your Dad in the show is a teacher, he’s a chemistry teacher, and he decides to start making crystal meth to make a bit of money. 	
MAT	What is crystal meth? 	
RJ	Crystal meth is like a hard drug it messes with the mind, your teeth, your body it just it’s like one of the worst… apparently look at it as one of the worst drugs out there. 	
LIZ	Have you tried it? No sorry I can’t… 	
RJ	No I haven’t. 	
MAT	Liz thank you very much. We’re talking to a… 	
RJ	I don’t mess around with that stuff. 	
LIZ	No of course no. 	
MAT	No. 	
RJ	I'm in school and I have to actually use my brain so… 	
MAT	Yeah it’s a bit difficult when you’ve fried it isn’t it? Hey what’s it like at school mate now that you’re the film star do you get bullied? “Here comes Mr Big Film Star” do they say when you come in or are they happy for you? 	
RJ	No actually the way I do school it’s kind of like a homework, it’s kind of like home school. 	
MAT	Have you got hippy parents? 	
RJ	No. 	
MAT	RJ’s Mum are you a little bit liberal? 	
RJ	Oh yeah here she comes I think she’s on the mic. 	
RJ’s Mum	No I’m not. 	
MAT	Phew that’s a relief. 	
RJ	Can she… can you talk? 	
RJ’s mum	How about open minded conservative? 	
LIZ	Ooh what does that mean? 	
MAT	Well we heard they existed. 	
LIZ	We’ve never met one - hello wow!	
MAT	How lovely. Anyway sorry back… 	
LIZ	Your schooling I mean... 	
MAT	Schooling what’s it like? 	
RJ	It sucks. I personally I don’t like school but you have to do it if you want to get through life so pretty much I put up with it. 	
LIZ	And what subjects are you doing at the moment? 	
RJ	English, Science, basic Geometry… 	
MAT	Always useful for an actor. 	
RJ	Yes. 	
LIZ	You’ve got to know the right angles. 	
RJ	Yeah, Chemicals… 	
LIZ	Good for the crystal meth. 	
GIDEON	That comes in handy. 	
RJ	Yes what’s ironic is when I’m on set and they’re off I’ll go to Bryan and just say, “Here’s my science do you want to do it for me?” - because it’s pretty much all the basic chemicals and the table elements. 	
GIDEON	That’s Bryan Cranston who plays your Dad in the show? 	
RJ	Yes he plays Walter White. 	
MAT	Is the show going down well in the States? 	
RJ	Actually it is. I don’t know but we got two Emmy’s… 	
MAT	Wow congratulations. 	
LIZ	It’s going well then. Are you filming the second series now then? 	
RJ	Actually I am right now. I’m doing that actually as we speak this is like my first week off.	
LIZ	When you’re not filming and the time’s off, you said you’ve got some off time now, what do you do? You say in the clip I’m not skateboarding I don’t need those, I’m not that trendy. In real life are you?  	
RJ	I’m actually very active. They actually limit me, because I have sometime called a morality clause where I can’t break any bones.	
MAT	Wow!	
RJ	I had to cut out a lot of my activities. 	
LIZ	Like what, what would you do if you could? 	
RJ	I like to dirt bike ride, four wheeler, go-kart I can’t do any of that anymore. Football and stuff like… I do a lot of stuff. I go shooting and paintballing. 	
MAT	Paintballing? 	
RJ	Pretty much anything. 	
MAT	What do you shoot when you go shooting? 	
RJ	Targets pretty much. I like going out with rifles and just with a bunch of friends and just blow a bunch of targets away. 	
LIZ	They’re called the locals. 	
MAT	How unlike a teenage American boy. 	
LIZ	That doesn’t fulfil any stereotype we have of Americans at all - no, no. 	
RJ	No it’s not. For me it fits a lot because I’m not actually from Alberkerky I’m from Lafayette, Louisiana.  	
MAT	Oh Louisiana huh?	
RJ	Yeah. 	
LIZ	From the south. 	
MAT	RJ Mette, thank you so much for talking to us. 	
RJ	Oh I’m glad you let me on. 	
MAT	Listeners, if you want to catch Breaking Bad it’s on the FX channel Sundays at 10:00 pm, that’s channel 164 on Sky, channel 179 on Virgin Media and channel 10 on Tiscali TV. RJ, goodbye.	
LIZ	Thank you so much. 	
RJ	All right. I hope you all have a good day. 
[Jingle: BBC.co.uk/ouch. Ow!]
[Jingle: Now it’s time for vegetable, vegetable or vegetable]	
MAT	Podcast, studio, microphone, telephone, contestant, quiz, chat, bit of lemon, sugar - done! 	
LIZ	Was that your Gordon Ramsey impression? 	
MAT	Well yeah. Listen, I’m a vegetarian I don’t like impersonating meat eaters… 	
LIZ	That’s fine. 	
MAT	… who hate vegetarians. 	
LIZ	That’s fine, okay. Yeah it’s the monthly quiz where we guess what’s up with the caller on the line and this month’s caller is Dean in Essex. Hello Essex boy. 	
DEAN	Hello there. 	
LIZ	How are you? 	
DEAN	I’m okay. I’m a Welsh immigrant exiled to Essex. 	
MAT	My word.	
LIZ	Really?	
MAT	That must be a terrifying experience. 	
LIZ	For Essex. 	
DEAN	Pardon. 	
LIZ	For Essex it must be terrifying. 	
DEAN	They’re slowly adjusting to me but it is taking time. 	
LIZ	Really. 	
MAT	Essex girls and Welsh boys what a perfect mix. 	
LIZ	What do you do down there in Essex, Dean. 	
DEAN	Well I started off studying for a degree in Chemistry and Quantum Mechanics.	
LIZ	Okay. 	
MAT	As you do. 	
DEAN	And now I make dresses for men. 	
LIZ	Make dresses for men?	
MAT	Eh? 	
LIZ	Eh?	
MAT	What? 	
LIZ	Do you do well at panto season? 	
DEAN	I do indeed I’m a drag queen and transvestite costumer. 	
LIZ	Heh-hey fantastic. 	
MAT	What a brilliant mix of things to be. Okay. Wow. And what do you think is in this coming next winter season? 	
DEAN	At the moment it’s definitely faux coloured camouflage - red camouflage, blue camouflage it’s everywhere. 	
MAT	Loving it! And on the issue of fur - faux or real? 	
DEAN	Well I would always go for artificial fake fur. 	
MAT	Good lad. 	
LIZ	Phew you’ve said the right thing. 	
DEAN	However, next year I am doing a fur wedding dress for a furry wedding in America. 	
MAT	It sounds a bit purvey. 	
DEAN	It is very. 	
MAT	Shall we move on? 	
LIZ	We don’t want to know. How on earth did you go from doing chemistry to making men’s frocks? 	
DEAN	You’d be amazed at the overlap. Basically I was doing this degree in chemistry and for reasons which I can’t go into because it’ll spoil the quiz, I kept on having accidents. I brought a whole new meaning to the term ‘students dropping acid’ in my case it was nitric acid everywhere. 	
LIZ	Oops sorry. 	
DEAN	So we decided it would be safer if I left. 	
LIZ	But how many people did you scar forever? 	
DEAN	Well I caused six million pounds worth of damage. 	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	Wow!	
MAT	Now that’s impressive. That’s the most… 	
DEAN	Now they didn’t charge me for that because we were very well insured. 	
MAT	Was it like the alien’s blood it actually melted through the floor the nitric acid? 	
DEAN	Yeah that’ll be HF and it was something like that yes. 	
LIZ	What did you damage? 	
MAT	How did you do six million quid’s worth? 	
DEAN	Well it was a chain reaction they foolishly let me experiment next to the solvent cupboard where all the highly inflammable stuff was.	
MAT	My God… 	
DEAN	I went off for a tea break and I came back and I found the fire brigade wouldn’t go in there because they didn’t know exactly what was in it so they just let the place burn down. It was just deemed safer for everyone concerned. 	
MAT	Gosh I’m struck dumb Liz it’s over to you. 	
LIZ	Struck dumb! Struck dumb! Is that the full…	
MAT	Sorry I’m momentarily incapacitated in the conversational department. 	
LIZ	I now have a speech impairment yes. Come on let’s have the rules. 	
MAT	Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the only two hosts of the Ouch Podcast have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only yes or no. It is both classic and therapeutic.	
LIZ	To take part in the intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Dean, are you disabled?	
DEAN	Oh yes. 	
LIZ	Oh yes. 	
MAT	Okay, 90 seconds on the clock. Your time starts NOW!	
LIZ	Okay. Do you have strong hands? 	
DEAN	Yes. 	
MAT	Do you have large shoulders? 	
DEAN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Do you have arthritis both Osteo and rheumatoid? 	
DEAN	Yes. 	
MAT	Do you have a benign growth on your spine?	
DEAN	Yes. 	
LIZ	Do you have inflammation of the upper spine? 	
DEAN	Yes. 	
MAT	Hold on - stop the music. STOP THE MUSIC.	
LIZ	Why we were doing so well. 	
MAT	Yes we were, suspiciously well Liz. 	
LIZ	Okay, okay we have to come clean. Honestly we normally never know what is wrong with the caller but this time the producer and the researchers and everyone that works in here sent us the whole script and the production notes. 	
mat	The blind producer and blind assistant producer managed to let us have all the production notes. 	
LIZ	We even have your medical notes, we know that much about you now. 	
DEAN	How did you list them up? 	
MAT	Have we missed anything?	
DEAN	Spina Bifida.	
LIZ	Okay tick. 	
MAT	Bifo. 	
DEAN	And brain damage. 	
LIZ	Brain damage oh that wasn’t down here. What about club foot? 	
DEAN	Oh yeah and [inaudible] 	
LIZ	Yeah, yeah we like that, we like that one as well. So actually had we not have known I think we would’ve guessed it because you’ve got so much wrong with you Dean. 	
DEAN	The plan was to keep you going but it would’ve been even funnier seeing as we were chatting only two weeks ago in Essex. 	
MAT	What? What - hold on a sec. 	
DEAN	It would be very embarrassing for Liz if she didn’t actually clock any of it. 	
MAT	You mean you two have met before? 	
LIZ	I only knew when reading your notes yes. When it said you wore flamboyant waistcoats I thought I’ve met you at a gig this makes perfect sense. 	
MAT	So hold on a sec…	
DEAN	I offered to make you custom sized pasties.	
MAT	Oh God hold on a sec Dean. What gig did you see of Liz and what was she doing? 	
DEAN	A sit down comedy at the Essex Funny Farm. 	
MAT	Was she funny? 	
DEAN	Oh hysterical. 	
LIZ	It was a really good night wasn’t it? 	
MAT	Right answer. 	
DEAN	And when she actually started into a set and it was even better then. 	
MAT	Oh this guy’s good, this guy’s good. 	
LIZ	Everyone’s a comic. 	
MAT	What was her best line?	
DEAN	I think the opening line of “I know what you’re all thinking Michael Jackson’s let himself go a bit.” 	
MAT	That’s good Liz.	
LIZ	Thank you. 	
MAT	I’m glad I gave you that one. 	
LIZ	You can have that for your new show. 	
MAT	No, no, no, no I don’t want to actually have any good jokes in my show. Dean?	
DEAN	Hm-mm. 	
MAT	What have we got to give him like 15 mugs or something? 	
LIZ	We are so sorry but it couldn’t have happened to a better guy with a longer list of conditions. 	
MAT	And are you happy with your life Dean? 	
DEAN	Ecstatic wouldn’t change a thing. 	
MAT	Are you hoping for any more impairments as you go through life? 	
DEAN	I’m hoping to get old enough to get a few more. Old age is the one I’m really going for. 	
LIZ	I want to know Dean because it says in the notes that we had, your hands are so strong from using sticks all your life that you crushed beakers with acid in them when worked in the labs.  	
MAT	That’s what happened okay. 	
LIZ	Is that what happened then? 	
DEAN	That was one part of it. I’ve gone through four mobile phones as well. 	
LIZ	You’re like the Incredible Hulk of the disability world. 	
MAT	With your beaker crushing hands. 	
DEAN	The thing was we thought it would be fine because they make you very thick gloves, and acid doesn’t react with the rubber we were using, but we forgot that it was boiling acid which melted through the gloves and then the acid got on my skin. 	
MAT	This is horrific. 	
LIZ	I love it. 	
MAT	And did it, is that why you’ve got a club foot because it dripped onto your foot and made it clubby? 	
DEAN	No that’s just a really bad birth defect. 	
MAT	Okay. So the producer’s just said, “End on a high” what are we going to do? 	
LIZ	Yeah birth defects are always good to end on. 	
MAT	Yeah good old birth defects. 	
LIZ	Good old birth defects. Have you heard the one… 
[Jingle: The Ouch podcast]	
MAT	Liz.	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	If you had to choose between being deaf or blind which one would it be? 	
LIZ	Deaf.	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	I wouldn’t want to be like the production team.	
MAT	No look at them. 	
LIZ	I know. 	
MAT	It’s sorry listeners…	
LIZ	Sorry of course you don’t mean that. 	
MAT	… it’s the awful thing if I have heard that conversation in pubs once… 	
LIZ	I know. 	
MAT	… I’ve heard it a million times. You never get people saying, “Dave, if you had to choose between being a thalidomide or a spasa what would it be?” 	
LIZ	Do you know what that question is? 	
MAT	What? 	
LIZ	It’s always the money question isn’t it? 	
MAT	It is. 	
LIZ	Do you see what that was? 	
MAT	It is. You know what I’m finding money a terrible, terrible problem at the moment Liz. 	
LIZ	How are you being affected by the credit crunch? 	
MAT	Well just terribly, terribly. I’ll tell you why in no uncertain terms. 	
LIZ	Are you being serious? 	
MAT	No I am actually. 	
LIZ	Oh okay. 	
MAT	Do you want to know or not? 	
LIZ	Yeah no but I was thinking this was a light through to… 	
MAT	Ah ha this is great.	
LIZ	… you’re about you know everyone’s talking about it so we’ve got to really. 	
MAT	What I’m finding is as an entertainer the high end stuff that you do that’s twenty quid a ticket - no one’s coming but they’re still coming to the £5 shows. So we just have to do a lot more of the low down dirty stuff that seems to be working more. 	
LIZ	I’m quite happy with the credit… 	
MAT	You would be you’re a comedian... 	
LIZ	No.	
MAT	… you don’t do high brow. 	
LIZ	Awh huh-ha no but really because I think the credit cr--… I think it’s a great leveller isn’t it?	
MAT	In what way Liz?	
LIZ	It’s bringing everybody down to poverty levels. 	
MAT	In which respect Elizabeth? 	
LIZ	It’s true - I’ve just told you.	
MAT	It brings everyone down to poverty levels? 	
LIZ	Yes which a lot of disabled people experience. 	
MAT	Ah okay great.	
LIZ	See. So you know not only a lot of disabled people going to be struggling but now everyone else is at the same level. 	
MAT	Do you think they’ll be more solidarity?	
LIZ	No not at all. 	
MAT	Or do you think people will be stabbing each other in the back for the last pound? 	
LIZ	Most probably for every bit of money. 	
MAT	Has it affected you? 	
LIZ	Has it affected me? 	
MAT	No how has it affected you?	
LIZ	How? Things are costing more of course they are. Bills - my gas bill - doubled. 	
MAT	My gas bill not really doubled because I got solar panels four years ago and all my neighbours who laughed with their mocking sneers “Oh have you got solar panels, how much did they cost £5,000 ooh that’s rather a lot isn’t it?” Who’s laughing now that’s what I want to know, I think you’ll find it’s me. 	
LIZ	Have you made up your £5,000?	
MAT	No I’m on the right... 	
LIZ	No just checking, just checking. 	
MAT	I will by 2012. 	
LIZ	Who’s laughing now when you have to replace them for new ones they’ll have just paid for themselves. Well done!	
MAT	What I have found, Liz, though is that I donate to about four different animals charities.	
LIZ	Do you? 	
MAT	Yeah, IFAW, Animal Aid, League Against Cruel Sports and one other I can’t remember. 	
LIZ	Thank you for the name checks. 	
MAT	And what I found is I usually give a £20 cheque each a month to them. And at the moment… 	
LIZ	Rockafella!	
MAT	The point is I’m actually not donating to them now and sometimes it’s like a fiver instead of twenty.	
LIZ	So are more animals dying now? 	
MAT	Because of me and my selfishness.	
LIZ	Yes so you can eat. 	
MAT	That’s how it’s affecting me in real terms I suppose. My charitable donations - hold on a minute what charities do you blooming well… 	
LIZ	I don’t give to any. 	
MAT	Why not you old militant? 	
LIZ	Absolutely. 	
MAT	You are you’re being militant Liz. 	
LIZ	No I am, I am. 	
MAT	Gideon, what charities do you give to? Don’t lie. 	
LIZ	Do you give to any? 	
GIDEON	Not really.	
LIZ	No, no. 	
MAT	And while we’re there, Emma you're looking very smiley.	
LIZ	Emma? No she’s shaking her head.	
MAT	She’s shaking her head. 	
LIZ	Vieira? 	
MAT	Vieira do you give, sorry listeners these are studio people, producers and access workers at the BBC, Vieira do you give to any charities and if so who? 	
LIZ	Looking at you blankly. 	
MAT	No. Okay. 	
LIZ	Damon? 	
MAT	Damon was thinking of Friends of the Earth but because of the tax thing he didn’t. Very, very… 	
GIDEON	Stuffy earth. 	
LIZ	Oh right. 	
MAT	Stuffy earth I want my £2.50 tax at the end of the year. Okay. Jo? Oh Jo - glasses. She’s not really sure. 	
LIZ	What?	
MAT	She’s miming. She buys the Big Issue ah that’s lovely. And Jo Hutton? Amnesty and Friends of the Earth did you say? 	
LIZ	And man who follows me round? Man, are you Phil? 	
GIDEON	Jeff. 	
LIZ	No. Man who follows me round… 	
MAT	Bunch of BBC tight arses the lot of you.	
LIZ	I can’t believe you well va, va, va, va, va. No I don’t I mean I think since the ‘80s of “We don’t give to charities, disabled people and charities are bad” and so much goes on overheads and it doesn’t go to the real issue and I think I still sort of follow that. Because we’ve got Children in Need coming up… 	
MAT	Oh God please. 	
LIZ	… in a couple of weeks. I’m sorry [inaudible] whatever. 	
MAT	Listen I don’t have a problem right with a big BBC Children in Need thing every year, but what I do have a problem with is the Pudsey bear image is the visually impaired bear, they’re constantly flashing up images of disabled kids, I haven’t watched it for five years maybe it’s modernised but am I being a bit old fashioned and militant about this? 	
LIZ	You see, stop using the word militant, because I think maybe you are wrong, because when I watch it I don’t actually see that much about disabled children anymore. Maybe we should be complaining about that - we’re not getting there. It’s covering all sorts of young people’s issues and it’s usually about poverty and urban stuff and providing more play spaces and la, la, la. It’s usually about that when you do watch it, it’s not… 	
MAT	I’m all for play spaces for disadvantaged, ethnic minority children etc., I somehow wonder why it’s up to us, the general public, to give charitable money for that to happen when the Government should be providing it anyway. 	
LIZ	But isn’t that the issue with most charities then? Couldn’t you say that? 	
MAT	Well absolutely. 	
LIZ	Do you get I was sat there, shopping the other day, I wasn’t shopping because obviously there’s a credit crunch but I was not shopping the other day in a shopping area and they had the chuggers. 	
MAT	The Chuggers. 	
LIZ	The Chuggers.	
MAT	What are the chuggers? 	
LIZ	Charity muggers, see what I did with chuggers. You know the people that are here in the street with the clipboards and… 	
MAT	Well I’ve seen them but they never approach me. 	
LIZ	No they don’t that’s what I was going to say. 	
MAT	Okay they avoid cripples. 	
LIZ	Absolutely. I’m like a beacon of just ignore me hello, they don’t they’ll stop my PA. Always they will want to stop the PA, because I think most PAs have that look of bless them they’re going to be a sort of a bit left wing they’ll give some money really. 	
MAT	Huh! On the wages you give them. 	
LIZ	And, obviously, nobody in the box over there does not just me the access workers here.	
MAT	I actually find anyone with a clipboard even people who takes those strangely homely looking wifey middle aged women that you find in shopping precincts who are doing surveys they always ignore me as well. 	
LIZ	No they do me. 	
MAT	In fact even the annoying young people who are giving away free shampoo on Victoria Station they ignore me. Everyone ignores me. 	
GIDEON	I had one the other day, I was going back to the station with Emma and we had the convoy of free newspaper men. 	
MAT	So picture the scene everybody, a CP and a blindy together. 	
GIDEON	Yes so we were wobbling and guiding as we go, and what happened was… 	
MAT	Gobbling. 	
GIDEON	… you got the London paper man and the London night man they’re there wrestling away, they shoved this paper in our face and then they looked at us and it was, “Ooh I’m sorry” and really dodged off because they’re, you know, they need to get out the way quickly.	
MAT	Did Emma have her white stick? 	
GIDEON	I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. 	
LIZ	That’s Gideon. Gideon’s joined us in the studio for this discussion. 	
MAT	It’s nice having you in from time to time young Gideon. 	
LIZ	I like this, yes it’s good. It’s good work experience. 	
MAT	How old are you Gideon? 	
GIDEON	22. 	
MAT	You’re pretty good looking. Are you single? 	
GIDEON	[laughs] 	
LIZ	Do you know what every time he does come in here that’s what you ask him. 	
MAT	And haven’t you realised why yet Liz? 	
LIZ	You do. No. 	
MAT	Okay let’s move on. 	
LIZ	So have you ever been chugged, have you ever committed suicide? 	
MAT	I’ve attempted, I’ve almost killed myself trying to chug. 	
LIZ	Can I just explain that, okay, when we’re doing the podcast right we have headphones on but they’re called cans apparently, I don’t understand why. 	
MAT	Ooh you're so… 	
LIZ	No I don’t know why right. 	
LIZ	And there’s a glass wall between us and the producer and the whole cast of thousands, access workers and studio manager and all that - they’re through there right. And every now and then we get the producer which is Damon talking to us. And he just said, “Can you Segway nicely from charity and being chugged into suicide now Liz.” Now other than have you been chugged, have you committed suicide I think that’s perfectly reasonable. 	
MAT	I’ve never chugged and it gets me so depressed Liz that when I go home I want to commit suicide. Suicide. 	
LIZ	No, no okay it’s not… 	
MAT	There’s no way of segwaying that in properly is there. 	
LIZ	It’s not really working. 	
MAT	Shall we just go, let’s stop talking about that, now let’s talk about suicide. Assisted suicide is big in the news again isn’t it Liz? It’s once again come round to bash us over the collective disability head with its blanket portrayal of the sort of “Of course they should commit suicide attitude.”	
LIZ	Now I’ve been looking… I get all the news stories because this young guy, Daniel James, went to Switzerland. 	
MAT	The rugby player? 	
LIZ	Rugby player guy yeah, went to Switzerland to end his life okay. And it’s just looking through the news and newspapers and it’s the way that they report it okay. You know, “We had to help our paralyzed son die” right and “Anguish of parents quizzed by police after taking crippled rugby player to suicide clinic.” Yeah. 	
MAT	Now let’s just… so he became a wheelchair user after a rugby accident of some sort right? 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	And was that wheelchair using a stable condition or was it a degenerative one I mean what… 	
LIZ	Stable, I mean basically the guy was very fit, obviously, he played for like school teams and student teams and the youth teams, was very, very good and he became disabled last year. So we’re talking really recently it was in 2007.	
MAT	Wow!	
LIZ	And he so hated being him, and being a disabled person, and you know his Mum says here, “He couldn’t walk he had no hand function, was in pain, he was incontinent, had uncontrollable spasms and needed 24 hour care.” So okay the guy didn’t have movement from the neck down he needed a lot of assistance. And that he just said, “I don’t want to live any kind of second class, as a second class citizen.” 	
MAT	Yeah. And of course, stop me if I’m not talking on your behalf, but I think I’m going to come straight to what I see as the crux of this matter is that of course there’s a huge amount of grief that goes on when you’re grieving for aspects of your condition that you don’t have anymore. There are seven stages of grief; number two is anger… 	
LIZ	Hm-mm. 	
MAT	Yeah you actually get through to acceptance if you leave it long enough. The point is other disabled people were they allowed near him, was he shown any role models of people who have learnt to live with their condition and gone on to lead full and fruitful lives like many of the people I’ve met with a similar impairments. 	
LIZ	In the UK it is legal to commit suicide. It’s illegal for somebody to assist you okay. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	So what happens is what hits the headlines usually is when a disabled person usually who has an impairment where they’re degenerative, they’re getting worse.	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Yeah - MS or motor neurone they’re the ones that you often hear about, cancer - they want the option of killing themselves, but they don’t have actually have the mobility to do it okay. So one of the interesting things is, is it like an equal ops issue because some people are campaigning to say actually if you believe in the right to commit suicide just because you can’t physically do it… 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Yeah and we’ve talked on this show about lots of things that you can’t physically do whether it’s having sex or you know rude things or not rude things or whatever natural things okay. So does everybody have that right even if you can’t do it yourself to commit suicide. Because the problem is if somebody helps you then they could be up for aiding and abetting and that’s where the trouble is. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	And that’s why over 100 people to date have gone over to this place in Switzerland called Dignitas. And that’s what’s going on.	
MAT	Dignitas gosh really, really complicated this isn’t it because I personally believe in individual freedom, and if I deemed that I wanted to take my life I would demand the right to do it. However, I’m totally of the opinion and I’ve looked into all the facts and it very much seems to me that this person was just… or this family rather were isolated in this man’s impairment and not given an opportunity to see that, with rehabilitation and physio and all the, you know, getting used to the social model of disability and five years down the line he might be a fully functioning person again. 	
LIZ	It’s like I think normally I would probably go, you know, you know what yes having the same rights as everybody else absolutely. The problem is whenever this is reported and wherever we hear about this the stories are so given in that you know well if you needed 24 hour assistance and your life had changed that much wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t you want that?  	
MAT	Why don’t they ask someone like Stephen Hawking or somebody, for example, off the top of my head and what you think about this? You never get asked another disabled person’s point of view on this. 	
LIZ	No. What was scary for me I was reading, let me just have a look, it was The Mail online and The Times online okay…	
MAT	Okay so two very well known and slightly right wing papers in Britain. 	
LIZ	And after they had the news story they then have comments okay. And the comments, I think the comments are the things that upset me most, because they’re like “I can only weep for this poor family” “I can’t believe that they could possibly face prosecution.” 	
MAT	Comments from the website users? 	
LIZ	Yeah comments from website users so just your average person on the street I guess. 	
MAT	Well no you’re average non disabled person who has no disabled friends on the street I would suggest.	
LIZ	Yeah and saying you know maybe I've got… some of them were saying I’ve got children, others were saying, you know, I just don’t feel any shame that you, you know, whatever, but just I think the person is really brave for going abroad and following this through. Other people saying absolutely if that was me this is what I’d want. And what scares me, away from the issue of whether we think it should be legalised or not, is that people so view disability as so negative…	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	… that they inevitably think that’s what we want and that’s what they’d want. I don’t know how we’d balance that we’re meant to be doing a balanced piece on this… 	
MAT	We’re rebalancing it. 	
LIZ	… it’s hard isn’t it? 	
MAT	Again, once again as with the Ashley X story, we’re rebalancing because they’re ALL of the rest of the press and media were like, “Well of course you should do it” and we’re just a small voice saying, “Hold on a minute, have you ever thought of not doing it?” I mean it really gets me down this one because it’s like, it’s a monument… it’s like a tsunami of opinion with you know we’re not even, I mean, it’s just so imbalanced I think. 	
LIZ	That’s why there’s a guy I was reading a piece about the guy who has actually supported the people to die, he’s actually gone with them to Switzerland. And he says that he doesn’t want the law to be changed in the UK because he said he really worries about this thing that you often hear called the slippery slope, because in the past it’s always been people who have been getting worse with their degenerative conditions, as we said. But now with this young guy he’s just a disabled person. 	
MAT	Also it would be in bad taste not to have talked about this without saying - Daniel rest in peace. Because, obviously, we want that to happen. 	
LIZ	And obviously a difficult you know that year that changed as you were saying all those changes that happened to somebody becoming disabled. It was on the Ouch message board there’s been some great stuff on there, people saying this whole thing about second class citizens, I think what people need to understand is we’re not second class ourselves it’s the way that we’re treated. And unfortunately I just think… 	
MAT	Yeah it’s almost as if… 	
LIZ	… he didn’t get that. 	
MAT	… it’s almost as if the mainstream culture need a reminder as to what the social model of disability means. Ridiculous that we’re having to explain it in 2008. Mind you… 	
LIZ	What? 	
MAT	… it does make me wonder why I was being looked at so weirdly when I was in Switzerland recently. 	
LIZ	Oh yeah	
MAT	I thought they were just smiling at me. They were like, “Welcome, you’ve come to end it all, how sensible.”	
LIZ	You didn’t actually have any death by chocolate did you?	
MAT	No. And funnily enough the hotel didn’t give me any breakfast. Probably thought I needed to be nil by mouth. 
[Jingle:
Dry your eyes and listen in
Disabled
Mat Fraser
Disabled
Liz Carr
The Ouch Podcast]
Listeners, you know we play out with disability music yeah with crippled sounds at the end of every podcast, but today we’re going to talk about them in the programme… 	
LIZ	No. 	
MAT	No we are Liz, I thought you were telling me I’d got it wrong again. No because we’ve got along with his friend, Leroy Moore on the line from California. 	
LEroy	Hey!	
MAT	Phew I worried there. Hey Leroy how’re you doing? 	
leroy 	Good how’re you doing? 	
LIZ	And you’re joined in the studio by Vivgurl? 	
VIVGURL	Yeah a big shout out across the planet. This is Vivgurl. 	
LIZ	Hello, hello. It’s very early for you guys isn’t it? 	
VIVGURL	Oh yeah. 	
MAT	What is the time in California right now? What is the time? 	
Leroy	It’s 7:15. 	
MAT	Ooh!	
vivgurl	Good morning sunshine, there ain’t no sunshine though. 	
MAT	So we’re actually talking to the Black Kripple and Krew from the new Black Kripple and Krew radio show featuring Vivgurl from the PoorNewsNetwork and Mountainman. Is Mountainman there? 	
leroy	No. 	
VIVGURL	He’s still in bed. 	
LIZ	He’s in bed. Some Mountainman. 	
leroy 	Yeah he’s in bed. 	
VIVGURL	He’s hibernating. 	
MAT	So your show used to be on pirate radio but the station had to move and it became difficult and so now you’re online is that right? 	
leroy	Yes that’s right, now we’re online to be streamed, you know, you can listen to it it’s going to start November 16th. 	
LIZ	So what’s, okay, so what’s the Black Kripple and Krew Radio Show what’s it about tell us more. 	
VIVGURL	It’s called Krip-Hop and what it does is we showcase artists, musicians mostly from the disabled community around the world; we’re all about making it local and global. 	
leroy	Oh yeah. 	
VIVGURL	And that’s going to be on alltalkradio.net\kriphop and it’s basically going to be bringing music that’s seldomly heard, if not heard at all in the mainstream media, and a lot of art out there and a lot of good music happening and we’re going to bring that to you. 	
MAT	That’s great news. I mean, obviously, a lot of know that there’s a huge family of disabled musicians out there that most people never get to hear so you’re going to be showcasing some of their talents yeah? 	
leroy 	That’s right. And like Viv said all over the world we have artists from South Africa, from Germany. 	
LIZ	So like who, Leroy, who have you got? 	
leroy	Oh my God we’ve got Binkey, he’s from Germany. He does handicap artwork in Germany. It’s a business that he does with other keyboard disabilities and music and art. So we’re going to showcase him. He did a song for our radio show we we’re going to showcase him. There’s Teroy in South Africa, we’ve got people from Spain	
VIVGURL	England. 	
leroy	England.	
MAT	Who’ve got from England? 	
VIVGURL	DJ Cripple.	
leroy 	Yeah DJ Cripple.	
VIVGURL	A brilliant song on Warmart. 	
MAT	Also, because I’ve got the notes here, you’ve got H.U.S.H, Fezo, Cripple Crew, Rob DA Noize, Temple, King Snyder, B-Sick, Dirty Wick, Miss Money I mean that’s a lot of people. Is it all hip-hop though?  	
leroy	No, no it’s mostly hip-hop, but no, we’re going to play some old blues because there’s blues singers and we’re going to play hard rock, techno, house	
Vivgurl	Some techno all kinds of stuff, experimental. 	
MAT	Now what about you Vivgurl what’s your background and how did you come to this project with Leroy? 	
VIVGURL	Well my background, I’ve got a bit of background I used to live in England for four years, and I was in the music business for a minute with a group called Rhythm Asylum. In 1989 we had a hit called Cold Train out of the UK and Germany. Years later I came back to the United States and I injured myself on a job where I broke my knee and life just kind of went bad for me for a while physically and having rehabilitating and being disabled for some time. And then I got involved with a lot of social justice work out here in California, I got involved with PoorNewsNetwork, Poor Magazine which is a brilliant, brilliant news, alternative news programme that we have here in San Francisco which is all about real media that’s never heard. And with Poor Magazine I met Leroy and I got together and with my background and Leroy’s background we linked it up and we brought together this radio show. And we were doing pirate radio this whole summer featuring the artists and stuff with the Krip-Hop project, and now we’re going to be going online and really making it smooth and putting it out there to the world.  	
LIZ	So how long have you been working together, how long has the show been going? 	
Leroy	The show has been going for almost a year now. 	
vivgurl	Almost a year yeah almost a year and half.	
LIZ	Yeah. But was it cool being on pirate radio that sounds kind of like a renegade thing to do?	
leroy	Yeah it was really cool. 	
vivgurl	It was pretty renegade.	
leroy	It’s like very hands-on… 	
VIVGURL	Duck tape. 	
leroy	You do have duck tape. 	
LIZ	What for? 	
VIVGURL	Microphones coming apart and stuff like that. 	
mat	Oh yeah that sounds familiar. 	
LIZ	So it was pretty rough and ready then? 	
MAT	So what would we do download one of your programmes? 	
leroy	Yeah, yeah you can download we’re going to have a big archive, so you can download it you can go and listen to it, it’s alltalkradio.net\kriphop. The pages that we have hopefully close to the first show.	
VIVGURL	And that’s Krip not Crip 	
mat	Absolutely a lot of ‘K’s luckily two and not three.	
leroy	Yeah, yeah, yeah big time.	
VIVGURL	Thank goodness. 	
mat	When’s the first one on guys? 	
leroy	The first one’s going to air November 16th so they don’t know what time yet but it’s going to air November 16th. 	
LIZ	And from then it’s the first and third Sunday mornings of every month yeah? 	
leroy	Yeah. 	
LIZ	So we can get it. 	
VIVGURL	Oh yeah. 	
mat	That’s great. And listeners to the podcast if you’re a budding musician doing a bit of Krip-Hop of protest music then I guess, guys am I right, they can proffer their music to you and you might broadcast it? 	
LIZ	Send it your way? 	
VIVGURL	Oh yes please. 	
leroy	That’s right yeah. You can email it to kriphopproject@yahoo.com 	
mat	Well all of that will be put on to the website.	
LIZ	Have that on the website. So, Black Kripple and the Krew, thank you so much for joining us in these early hours in California... 	
VIVGURL	Yeah early hours. 	
LIZ	…and good luck with the first show.	
leroy	Thank you. 	
LIZ	It’s been fantastic. 	
mat	Thank you very much guys, and well done we’ve needed this kind of thing for a long time. 	
LIZ	Long time coming.	
VIVGURL	It’s coming live and direct for twice a month and we’re going to bring it to you. 	
mat	Ah nice people. 	
LIZ	Wasn’t that great?	
mat	Weren’t they nice people? 	
LIZ	Yeah. I want to listen are you…	
mat	Absolutely. 	
LIZ	You really want to listen it’s great.	
mat	Listen I listened to the first Krip-Hop tape back when it was actually a mixed tape that Leroy was doing - really good stuff. And she sounds pretty cool as well. 	
LIZ	Yeah no she does. Fantastic. Well you now what? 	
MAT	What? 	
LIZ	It’s the end. 	
MAT	Ooh not again. 	
LIZ	It is the end of podcast 33 for November 2008 - wow! Thanks to guests we had RJ Mitte, we had Leroy Moore, Mikey Hughes and the production team, of course, Damon Rose, Emma Tracey, Gideon Goldberg and Jo Hutton. We’re back in December for a special Christmas podcast - listen out for it. 	
mat	So we’re playing out this month with a track from New South Wales band, that’s a place in Australia not in Wales, called MSG. MSG are Angela James, Matthew Damond  , Leanne Butt, Aeron Docherty, Alicia Boyd and Dolfazoid - that’s a name I like very much. The band are part of the Tra La La Blip collective of disabled musicians. 	
LIZ	Their first compilation CD Sound Beam Session Volume 1 was launched in September this year and it’s getting national radio play on ABC’s Triple J FM. Find out more about them on their web space oh yes - myspace.com/tralalablip which we’ll link to from our site because I might have put one too many ‘L’s in there I don’t know. This is the song Ice Cream Truck. Goodbye for now.	
MAT	Goodbye. Can I have a lemon ice? 
[Playing music]